Very early to be starting this thread given the season really ought to be starting in the next week but....

Glenshee have invested in lots of fencing and a new piste basher, there is still plenty fencing on site to bring the Cairnwell side up to scratch and finish off the back passage. The piste basher set-up is probably fine for a wee while.

The Baddoch Chair seems certain to be installed in summer 2011.

There is "new investment" from Algo and he will apparently be fitting a new shed at the top of the Cairnwell Chair - having said that, it was supposed to go in last year!!

With 30,000 skier days so far, where should Glenshee invest?

Certain folk are hell-bent on removing Meall Odhar T Bar - despite the fact that it is fully operational and truly saved their bacon last year after the same individual allegedly allowed the Caenlochan pylon to collapse when iced up.

Courrour is arguably the most expensive drag lift in the UK yet it has hardly ever operated because they never got it set-up right! Grianan was removed, apparently with the intention of installing it up Butcharts Coire but was since used to replace the pylons on Sunnyside - no more twin sided pylons left...

The Tiger T Bar was inexplicably removed, voluntarily according to Willie.

So what to do? Personally, I want to see them begin a programme of replacement for the current drag lifts. This would require an on-going investment, but might allow us to by second hand stuff from Europe. I have reason to believe that the French tend to replace drag lifts at 15 years old. If galvanised, they will have another 30 years in them. If Glenshee do this, it means creating priorities based on age and importance of the lift. I'd suggest the following:

1) Tiger Draglift - If the chairs can't run because of wind, we need alternate access to the run and to the other runs on that side of the hill. The length of the lift would give a large uplift capacity. It should also reduce the hours on the Cairnwell Chairlift, protecting it for summer use. It must start from the same height as the chair so it may have to start South of the Main run.

2) Tom Dearg II - This is an excellent beginner area and a potential bottleneck should the lift fail. Courrour is a similar length and could be re-instated or moved. If the unloading mechanism continues to beat them, they can simply replace it with conventional bull wheel.

3) Caenlochan/Meall Odhar T Bar - Arguably the best run in Scotland, if it was longer it would be! The T Bar faces resistance and old age, the Poma has failed structurally and many on here have doubts about it's current integrity. Bases and pylons appear in poor condition. These lifts not only serve the two runs, they also provide access to Coire Fionn and Glas Moal via the burn. Ideally a double poma installation using the existing poma uptrack.

4) Glas Maol - This is contentious. Glas Maol has recently undergone a significant overhaul and is also one of the newest drag lifts. Nevertheless, it is key to folk skiing at Glenshee and is constantly queued to the max on weekends. It would be tight to install a new poma longside the existing one, so it may make sense to run a double poma behind Coirre Fionn allowing access to the gully. This expansion could justify a new Cafe.

5) Carn Aosda - Although I am a massive advocate of traditional poma lifts, a T Bar is required here in order that it can run in high winds. A button tow would cripple the uplift capacity. This ranks number 5 as it offers superb skiing but is not critical for accessing Butcharts Coire.

This investment would be huge and would take several successful seasons. The temptation, on the back of a number of good years, would be to install a gondola, driect from the North of the centre to Coire Fionn. That's fine and well, but if any of the 5 lifts above fail, the centre would have egg on its face.

Other work which I'd love to see done, but would need a massive surplus of cash:
Extend the Beag to beyond Caenlochan - easier to ski down than up!
Re-instate Grianan - ideally with a couple of ticket office outlets South of the lift.
Install a modern Cairnwell chairlift and build a walk way to the summit.
Install a funicular direct from the car park to Coire Fionn (from the North) or top of Caenlochan (from the south)

All the while fences must be maintained, broken lifts must be kept in service and the snow must be pisted to it's current levels.

I am proposing significant investment, with the caveat that money should not be borrowed. I think I speak for all when I say that if we see such investment, we'll pay more money - possibly £32. The alternative could well the model of Cairngorm.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 15.14hrs Tue 4 Jan 11 by oversteer.

A cheaper improvement would also be revamping their website, its pretty antiquated and has a totally off-putting lay-out. It would make the centre seem a lot more professional and appealing having something similar to glencoes/the gorms. They have that pano webcam, so they should flaunt it! Not just hide it away as a tiny little link.

Quote:
Certain folk are hell-bent on removing Meall Odhar T Bar - despite the fact that it is fully operational and truly saved their bacon last year

Some of the Poma towers look in a very poor condition and tower founds are crumbling on both the Caenlochan and Meall Odhar Pomas. From the point of view of visual appearance, the Meall Odhar T-bar appears to be in a far better condition structurally, the Caenlochan Poma looked ready to fall down and it did!

Realistically should both Pomas be considered more or less end of life?
Given in some winters Meall Odhar can be the barrier preventing access to good snow in Coire Fionn, it doesn't make strategic sense to invest in new surface lifts in this area.

Thus my preference would be to put a relatively modern chair with a well planned line to maximise wind tolerance somewhat off the track of the Meall Odhar Poma, with at least triple carriers to provide capacity greater than both existing Pomas. Then refurbish the Meall Odhar T-bar and decommission the Caenlochan Poma. A fenced traverse established from the top of Meall Odhar to ease access to the head of Coire Fionn from the T-bar, as the existing T-bar line and terminal are much less exposed than that of the Caenlochan Poma.

The reality with modern lifts and lift parts is that the t-bar vs chairlift debate in Scotland is far less clear cut than it was.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 16.08hrs Tue 4 Jan 11 by alan.

Good call for new thread.

I agree, its come to the point where lifts are gradually needing replaced, let allone maintained.

If i was injecting a few £million into it i would want to reinvent the roadside building layout with lodge style buildings and put wood burning stoves in all the cafes.
I would change the beag ith maybe a small t-bar that runs at higher speed. Change tom dearg to run twin lifts, or t-bar. If not funicular then maybe double cabled gondola running from the car park to the top of corrie fionn with a top station of similar uses to the ptarmigan, maybe have an exhibition of the history of skiing in scotland. Id also maybe have a mid station at the beag with another lift either heading down to the braemar road or the devils elbow where there would be additional parking.

Im not so sure about this next one, just looked at it google earth but not in real life. Id rip out glas maol and instead have two pomas going up the gully opposite corrie fionn. One heading straight up to the top and one taking a right turn and taking you close enough to the black gully. Then adding new lifts to the back of glas maol.

On the butcharts side i would run a high speed chairlift up carn aosda though id keep the t-bar in place for windy days. This would open up the MTB terrain for summer use.

Id reinstate graynan, but maybe slightly furthur up the car park.

The cairnwell chair is a tricky one though, cant take it out as its practically an antique now and represents the history of the centre, however it is the obvious place to put a new lift in.

Id also look into expanding outwards and finding a way of increasing parking capacity such as build underground parking.

I would put in a new t-bar at meal odhar and use it to serve a terrain park down the parallel run.

Some lifts i would take out to compensate for the new ones in terms of opperating costs and restore parts of the mountainside to their former glory during summer.

But the 3 main problems that need to be addressed are:
Parking capacity (how many people can actually fit into the car park(s))
Uplift capacity (increase ticket sales whilst avoid ridicuulous queuing or lift break downs)
Income for summer months (to allow greater income year round)

Of course all of my ideas are a bit radical but i think would make the whole place better in every way.


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But i do think the recent investment is exemplary and the work thats been done last summer is very respectable. And the new pb shows that the resort is taking steps to make us have better skiing days.
Looking forward to the rest of this season with the new park and whathaveyou but also looking forward to see what tricks they get up to over summer. The main improvements i wish to see sooner are the new chair and a new website.

Cammyammy, you really ramble some dreamy rubbish.

meall odhar chair has to be a definite, on the caenlochan or as close as possible given the wind etc, combined with some snowflex mats in the beag/clunie area maybe? another option would be to relocate the courrour poma to the gulley under tom dearg (see image) which would open up a whole new area with new runs to the left (looking downhill) of coire fionn, and more options for coming down glas maol. If i remember rightly some of the area in there's pretty flat, so could be a more snow sure beginner area. not 100% how the snow lies down there though.

also, cheers to tim1mw for the google earth ski centre files

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Alan, I don't disagree with any of what you write but I suspect that the cost of chair (I suspect it would need to be detachable to get a decent uplift speed) would prohibit your plan.

In terms of Meall Odhar T Bar, an extra hundred metres would make so much difference. I'm not convinced it needs much else done to it. When Andy Paterson ran it last year, he showed that the torque of the Diesel engine remians strong and the t-bar is quick.

What they musn't do, under any circumstances, is allow one chair to be the sole method of getting the third valley. They must retain one of the Meall Odhar's or Caenlochan. If the chair developed a fault, you'd lose the third valley and if you onlh have the chair, you lose the oldest (and my favourite) piste in Meall Odhar.

If you remember back to the day we walked on the hill with Dr Watson, Willie spoke about using the two chairlifts which they currently have for the Cluny and Meall Odhar Poma. This is scuppered by the plans to install Baddoch which surely offers a far lower financialy return?

One other thing worth noting is that traditionally Glenshee simply doesn't attract skiers at the tail end of the season so the cost of the chair would be more relevant, i.e. it can't be said, "Aye it'll cost more but it'll provide us with more income because we'll get lots of skiers at the end of the season." Still doesn't justify putting one of them up Baddoch though...

There's also an issue that three chairlifts to enter the third valley means around 8 lifties just for Coire Fionn and Glas Moal. Countering that, if they can secure some fresh income into April, they can pay staff to carry out extra maintenance. For example, service each hanger as it comes off the rack, lick of paint on each lift at a time when banging in fence posts can't be done. Even the lift huts could be given a splash of stain.

Tough call...



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 18.29hrs Tue 4 Jan 11 by oversteer.

Why would any one want to put a poma down into the allt coire fionn? With that poma it would encourage a lot more unwanted traffic onto sron na gaoithe. The gully is out side the ski area boundary, glenshee would have to get permission from the land owner to install a new lift and fences. What i've seen, the slopes on either side of the gully never seem to hold a lot of snow.



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 19.30hrs Tue 4 Jan 11 by YJ.

If they had loads of money and no environmental issues (...) surely the money would have to go where the altitude is highest, and where there is snow even in the lean years - Glas Maol and the corries around it!

It leads to the question as to why the centre was built out the way it was, and if that is still relevant even with the bad winters we have had, nothing to say that these cold winters will last. I`d go for lower level access from the north into Corie Foinn closer to braemar as a priority, and potentially same thing from the south below Devil`s elbow.

@YJ that extending the area thing was sort of my point, if we're in cloud cookoo land then why not stretch the boundaries a little bit. obviously not a good idea if there's no snow in there, but joining up some contours and opening up more terrain is one of the few things i'd want to do to the basic layout. as dub_01 says, more access points either end would be no bad thing, especially one avoiding the slide

to my mind, glenshee works pretty well as a resort, there's not a lot of bottlenecks (except the plastic, but thats being sorted) or lifts in silly places. assuming all the lifts work and have been given a coat of paint (and we can't go sticking lifts outwith the area) then upgrading the buildings would be next on my list i think, some hostel/bunkhouse type arrangement would bring in a tonne of cash year round, and it wouldn't take much to upgrade the appearance and energy efficiency of all the buildings, less profit wasted on heating

Consider the old Glenshee:

Only cafe at the car park.
Cairnwell chair,
Cairnwell T bar,
T Bar near claybokie (memory is letting me down on the name)
Carn Aosda T
Butcharts T
Sunny T
Meall Odhar T

The lifts went where the best snow lie is/was nearish to the cafe. It was always a yomp to the Meall Odhar T, but the skiing was worth it (and the new snow fencing has now emphasised the potential here). It was also a regular uphill yomp from the cafe up to Carn Aosda/Cairnwell, because the queue for the chair was horrendous with it used to provide access via the bunny run to Cairnwell and Butcharts, as well as the Tiger run. The Baddoch chair is way overdue to improve access to all the skiing to the north of Claybokie. It also makes a lot of business sense to get newbies up to the snowmaking at claybokie.

The Meal Odhar/Caenlochan pomas are certainly a worry, and there are always concerns over poma surface lifts' complicated mechanisms and "interesting" engineering, especially in a Scottish weather context. Leitner, now have a range of fixed grip button lifts with capacities close to the best pomas, and interestingly, they are finding a market for them in Scandinavia (where similar extreme conditions exist).

I would say that any spare cash has to go into maintaining/re-engineering/replacing the existing key uplift and fencing before there is any talk of new stuff. (and toilets !)

Note that a detachable chair lift which is a lot more expensive both to purchase and run, makes little difference to the capacity aka number of people per hour.

The limiting factor is how quickly you can load each chair, and the speed two,three, four people shuffling forward can go does not increase because it is a detachable chair. Detachable chairs have lower misloads than fixed grips, but the introduction of a magic carpet at the loading area pretty much evens the field.

Now admittedly there are a very small number of detachable chairs that get around this by having two loading points but these are as rare as hens teeth almost certainly cost even more than a standard detachable chair and are thus even more unlikely in Scotland.

While lots of detachable chairs in Scotland would be nice, standard fixed grips are a much more realistic proposition.

I understand that as an ideal concept, but we're talking about some dreadful skiers. Look how often Sunnyside Chair, which is hopelessly slow compared to modern detachables, stops because idiots can't stand in the right place at the right time or try to fall off!!!

The leased ski area includes Allt Coire Fionn and the lower slopes of Sron na Gaoithe above the burn, so the Company would not need permission to extend facilities there. In fact the Company hoped to make a car park opposite the exit of Allt Coire Fionn, below the main road, and run an access chairlift from there to the foot of the Glas Maol Tow and Coire Fionn Tows. Then the Company ran into financial difficulties with Glencoe and poor skiing seasons, so the plan was dropped. An earlier proposal was an access chairlift from a car park at Devil's Elbow, but the then Manager was not keen on this because it would have split the operation of the ski area too much, and in any case Meall odhar could still be a a bottleneck with broken snow cover when the snow at Coiure Fionn and Glas Maol was complete. YJ is right that a Poma up Allt Coire Fionn would not work, owing to poor snow-holding. I have often skied up and down by Allt Coire Fionn, but the cover is good only in snowy periods, and you often had to do some climbing in and out of hillocks and hollows to keep skis on the snow ribbons. The Coire Fionn runs and Glas Maol runs are complete for many days annually after the run down Allt Coire Fionn has gone. Improving the access on Meall Odhar to the top of the Coire Fionn Tows is always going to be vulnerable to the snow becoming broken at lower altitudes towards the main buildings, on Sunnyside and the basin below Meall Odhar. This was the reasoning behind the access chair for Allt Coire Fionn. However, it would be very expensive to instal it and make the new roads and car park and other buildings, and the company has been too close to bankruptcy for comfort. If the company had been able to get taxpayers' money as freely as at Cairngorm ski area, it would have been a different matter. Glenshee has been the worst treated of all five Scottish ski areas for taxpayers' grants.

Spot on. It really is a crying shame the many millions of pounds investment in one area over the last 15 years and the basic abandonment of the 4 others. Glenshee in particular, after all the work, planning and investing to produce a ski area rival to many smaller ski areas anywhere in the world, has had very little in the way of government help and assistance.

Hopefully we'll get another good run of snowy winters which will mean they don't need it.

Can we be far sighted enough to plan for the next time for things don't go so well?