Good news all round! Glad you're back on the hills and good to hear that common sense has finally prevailed. It's gonna be a busy summer for what is a very small outfit. The work carried out on snow fencing last year was both crucial and obvious throughout this past winter. If memory serves me right they put in 3 kilometres and have about the same again to go in this year. Hopefully the post jabber and the weather both work in their favour because otherwise the Chairlift could come at a price.

The optimist in me says that at least last year saw a lot of time consuming mechanical work completed so that should be extra man hours for them this year.

Not that I like to wish my life away....but please please please ask Graham and the boys to spend some of summer 2012 making a double lift hut at Coire Fionn as they do at they Cluny. It's such a plester scuttling round the back of the old hut to get to the left hand side uplift from the right hand side run. Midweek they tend to alternate the poma which is running but in recent years the best skiing has always been on the right hand side - looking up. One hut, with doors on either side would eradicate this problem and should ensure that queues are more organised.

Guess if that's the biggest problem we face (other than the Beag being 150 metres too short!) we're not in a bad place, are we?

The digger is now working near the bottom of the Dink Dink.

Additional thought, there have been calls to replace a number of lifts on this thread (Caenlochan, old Cluny and Meall Odhar have been specifically mentioned). I certainly wouldn't complain about any of the lifts being upgraded, but is this opinion based on an assessment of the mechanical condition of the lifts (eg frequency of breakdown during the season?), or cosmetic appearance? My uninformed opinion is that a bit of de-rusting and painting would do wonders for many of the lifts at GS.

Finally, I can 2nd cammyammy in confirming that the Courrour used to run, I remember riding it back in 1996.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 17.48hrs Thu 28 Apr 11 by tim1mw.

I am probably the culprit of asking for lifts to be replaced and I know feck all about structures or loads!

Two points:
1) I am very concerned by the reliance on machinery which is from the 60s, 70s and early 80s. I would love to be assured that Glenshee plans to replace all the uplift at a rate of one lift per year but I'm not sure the proits allow for such dreams to materialise.

2) The specific lifts have, in my untrained opinion, got specific issues. Caenlochan is very rusty and the base plates on the upper pylons seem in poor shape, The concrete has crumbled and looks dubious. The lifties appeared to nurse it last season by increasing the spacing between skiers.

The old Cluny is very high mileage. The new cluny is scarcely used because it needs much more snow to run. The old Cluny is probably a 70s lift and is whilst such as motor, gear box and wheels will have been replaced several times over, the main structure is original. It appears to be in ill-health generally, suffering many breakdowns in recent years.

The same is true of Meall Odhar Poma though I suspect it's 5-10 years newer. It's concrete bases also appear to be failing and the rack was giving a lot of trouble this year. It's a key lift, especially in high wind or when snow depth is touch and go.

The replacement of these lifts is not, in my opinion, the main priority; rather it was a proposal based on the assumption that a chopper will be required to install Baddoch and the thought that Courrour should be recycled somewhere. My thoughts on the lift structure can be found on page 1 of this thread.

Im not convinced that they'll need a chopper with the big vehicle track being at such close proximity and it being so short and close to the base. And there are only two or three towers to go in. Could be wrong though.

I am in no doubt that they can afford to replace lifts especially with profits of recent years (remember they did buy a new top-spec pb and were pushing to install a chairlift but remember it wasnt their finances that let them down). Im not familiar with costs but to replace a simple poma such as cluny or meal odhar surely would be possible for well under £250,000 (the cost of a pistes bully 600). All the ground work is pretty much there, loading and unloading points as well as snow fencing and power supply, its really just foundations and all the lift itself that needs replaced.

Why does everyone want to replace Glenshee's lifts? Surely their efficient use over the last couple of years proves that they are well maintained and well set up, at least as well as anywhere else in Scotland.

Surely it is better for them to bank any additional money they have taken, continue with their current maintenance programme and prepare for leaner years ahead. Why waste money on new lifts they don't need ?

The Meall Odhar, Caenlochan and the original Clunny Poma's towers appear to be in poor condition - as borne out by the structural failure of the Caenlochan Poma prior to the start of the 2010 season.

The Meall Odhar lifts are obviously vital to Glenshee for access to Coire Fionn and Glas Maol. The existing Poma lines have their own problems too, the Caenlochan Poma is significantly more exposed to cross winds than the adjacent Meall Odhar T-bar.

Despite some ground works over the years to ease the situation, the Meall Odhar Poma simply doesn't have enough towers in the right places and it takes a substantial depth of snow to make the lift ridable. Even Glenshee moans about sometimes having to dig up the adjacent runs to get enough snow to make the Poma usable.

Meall Odhar can also be a barrier to good snow conditions beyond if the snow predominantly comes from one direction. Replacing the Meall Odhar Poma with a triple chair as I gather is proposed will significantly increase uplift capacity on Meall Odhar (making it easier to ski the interesting terrain around this area, as at present it's largely used as a transit route to Coire Fionn due to lift capacity). It will of course also significantly improve the reliability of access to and from Coire Fionn and Glas Maol.

thats a nice proposal if it comes off i'm not convinced caenlochan is a total right off yet either, granted it's not in great condition, but the failure was only on one tower, and on probably the most heavily loaded tower at that. some reinforcing and patching would resolve the worst issues, structurally at least.

beyone that it's hard to argue that some shotblasting and a coat of paint wouldn't improve things dramatically, both cosmetically and in limiting further degredation. after all, how old is the forth rail bridge?

has to be said though, glenshee's management can be trusted to do the right thing

Hit the nail on the head Allan!

At the moment bottle necks make some of the best terrain a hassle to ride on in that area. The uplift capacity increase of a tripple chair would be more than enough to prevent this happening.

All lift systems age with time and need replacing now and again, some sooner than others. Glenshee hasn't replaced anything recently and the effects do show. Meal odhar being one of the oldest pomas at the centre has been there for 20ish years (i think) so Its an old lift being absolutely hammered on a busy day, two significant factors towards replacement.

Also because these lifts don't run efficiently (due to wear and tear, parts constantly need replaced anythingand outdated technology), the centres paying more on running costs than they really need to. And when is a better time to invest than after two amazing seasons?

PeterS I think that the age of the lifts is a great cause for concern. The early Poma equipment is notoriously poor. Andy Mollison used to cheerfully and regularly describe them as "homemade sh*t" and "like something you'd build in a garage".

Compare Glas Maol at Glenshee with the Goose, Warrens, Alpha or Summit lift at Nevis Range. The difference is night and day. Dopplemayr gear is clearly built to last, 1980s Poma stuff appears to have been designed to last 15 years which apparnetly is an age at which French authorities insist on a major refurbishment of a ski lift.


That aside, the concrete bases are visibly crumbling on many of Glenshee's towers. A second structural failure could have colossal repercussions for the business. I think it's naive to suggest that the key lift structure has a life expectancy beyond 20 years. Including Baddoch and Courrour, there are 23 lifts at Glenshee and my suggestion is that Glenshee should look to replace one lift per year. That takes us to 2035 before all the lifts can be replaced. Do you think Caenlochan, the old Cluny, Meall Odhar, Cairnwell Chairlift will run until then? I don't.

In addition, the lifts are being nursed at present. Coire Fionn and Sunnyside pomas are alternated to reduce hours, Buctharts T Bar is rarely used despite having the fun park and a new, electrical drive. The spacing on such as Sunnyside, Meall Odhar poma and Caenlochan has never been greater and Meall Odhar T Bar was inexplicably reduced from a T Bar to a button despite the engine's vital signs all being strong.

These are not criticisms, they are observations after 28 years skiing at Glenshee. The current management team have worked wonders with equipment which is deteriorating.

I do understand your desire to bank money, but the centre must also recognise that investment is a stimulus. Folk are excited by the new piste basher and many more will be enthused by the installation of Scotland's first lift since 200X? If they can commit to a structured programme of redevelopment they will generate media interest (free advertising), attract skiers from other resorts, encourage more external investment and generally raise the profile of the resort.

The centre has been incredibly unlucky to miss out on many of the revenue streams enjoyed by CML and the Lecht. I'd like to see them issue a public statement, outlining their plans to revamp the centre and become a summer resort.

They desperately need help from politicians and perhaps an unscrupulous advisor. It's clear that Glenshee have been at the brown end of the stick for quite some time. I'd hope that if they issued a clear development plan, we could form a working group to lobby Holyrood ministers into supporting Glenshee.

Completely agree, i think if they don't invest soon it'll cost them significantly in a couple of years.

But i have to say if there's the available finances (which there would be after seasons like these) the opportunity should be taken to upgrade a few lifts to improve capacity as well as replacing others.

A good place to start is sorting out this ridiculous tax nonsense (the one where they count each hanger as a vehicle) which is where the politicians come in. But that's a battle for all ski centres to fight together.

It would seem it would be a smart decision to use dopplemayer lifts in some areas but as far as i know the surface lifts don't have the uplift capacity of a poma but would be a real option when replacing the over 40 year old t-bars.

Id upgrade corrie fionn and meal odhar to (quad) chairlifts, though keeping one poma on CF for windy days. That way access to all valleys becomes less of a hassle and corrie fionn and meal odhar face Will be skied on more (no bottlenecks to avoid) on busy days meaning less crowds elsewhere. But that's of a lower priority than above.

Is it intended as a direct replacement on the same line, or will it start lower down? I would start a Meall Odhar chair from the foot of the Tom Dearg and do a little bit of earthwork to improve the run back down the bottom of the gully.

If they could also stick a chair up Cluny or Tom Dearg (depending on where the Meall Odhar chair starts) to link with the sunnyside chair, then you've got a complete non-surface route out to Coire Fionn and Glas Maol. If you make sure that the chairs are set up for downloading as well, then people could be shuttled out and back when the snow is poor.



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 00.40hrs Thu 5 May 11 by tim1mw.

I think we need a bit of financial reality here chaps:

1/ The current Glenshee is financially a young company without a long term track record. The only important feature of the previous company is that it went bust. 2 good seasons are an excellent base to start building a sound financial history, but they need a few more to show long term viability in the corporate finance world.

2/ For most businesses, large capital investment (such as new lifts) are paid for by capital funding from the finacial markets, either through borrowing, leasing, or sometimes by share issues. The first two add to future operating costs - therefore the business has to be making sufficient underlying profit to cover the capital and finance costs going forward. They are rarely paid for directly from cash generated over 2 years.

3/ Glenshee has a significant backlog of maintenance across all of its infrastructure (ie lifts, snow-fencing, toilets, etc), and this must be the first call on any available cash, rather than funding new borrowings to fund new capital equipment.

4/ Current projects (ie the new chair and proposed Caenlochan chair) are using infrastructure that is already sat there, having been bought by the old regime, so compared with "new" equipment, it is very cheap. Going out and buying any new gear is a different thing altogether. (note for CML - why can't you manage this with 2 chairs already in situ ?)

5/ even if GS had just had 5 good seasons in a row, it would still need to externally finance any large scale lift replacement programme, and right now, capital markets are very wary, and it would be difficult to get deals that were not at penalistic interest rates.

FWIW, I think that GS management are doing an excellent job of walking a financial tightrope, whilst progressively improving(albeit slowly) the customer offering. (CML are you listening and watching ?).

The failure of the Glenshee Chairlift Company should be a lesson to the powers that be at HIE as well as CML that a mantra of diversification for the sake of diversification is not the answer!

Yes remember it went bust because of diworsification into a golfcourse

And it also bought financially unstable Glencoe on a spending spree, then had a couple of bad snow seasons, so there was nothing left in the pot to get through. It does show the importance of keeping a slice of cash in hand to keep the core business going through bad times rather than spending the lot, and protecting the core when the diversifications go wrong.

Just think what GS could be doing now if all that cash had been re-invested just in GS over the past 10 years !!!