I was in conversation with a friend at the weekend on the (almost) perennial Scottish snow-patches, but I was quite annoyed with myself that I didn't know the answer to the question of when and where the last snow patches in England endured through a summer and into the following winter.

I'm guessing in the gullies of Helvellyn or Great End, or even, perhaps, on Cross Fell. But I can't remember reading of when the last patches survived.

While we're here, if anyone knows of the last Welsh patches to survive and their locations, this would be of great interest too.

When writing Cool Britannia, Adam and I came across a lot of literature on the Pennines and the Lake District. Cross Fell had more written about it than just about any other hill in northern England. What we discovered was that, although doubtlessly more snow used to fall in the period the book covers, snow has never been known to persist in England until the following winter. The latest month we have reliable reports for is August. In 1979 a local farmer at Temple Sowerby reported two tiny patches at the head of Crowdundle Beck on the 18th of August.

I think that it is entirely plausible, though, that snow has persisted in exceptional years on Cross Fell during the Little Ice Age. The topography of the hills favours long snow lie, as opposed to the sharp and craggy hills of the Lake District. Unfortunately, however, there is no concrete proof of it having happened.

The longest-lying patch of snow in Wales is generally to be found at Y Ffoes Ddyfn (the deep cut) on Carnedd Llewelyn. This patch has been observed for a good many years, though sporadically. An account of James Orchard Haliwell from 1860 talks about snow on that mountain persisting until 'the close of August'. In 2010 the snow there persisted until June 28th.

I can thoroughly recommend Cool Britannia to you and your friend...

...and snow has never been known to persist at Y Ffoes Ddyfn either. Nor - for that matter - anywhere else in Wales, so far as we're aware.

The longest lasting patches I have seen on Cross Fell are approximately 1.5km north on the N. side of cross fell in an area known as the screes. There have been patches and skiing in June on Great Dun Fell. My father had skied there in the 60's, PeterS knows there more recent times when this has happened. There were a couple of patches to mid June in 1979 on the S. side of Teesdale on the moors above Holwick.

Generally I'd say it is too far South and snow fall too low for long lasting patches these days but I thought I'd read somewhere about recoreds of long lasting snow patches in the Pennines during the 19th century.

Thanks, Iain, for this information. I knew that the chances of snow surviving through the summer south of the border were slim, but I was sure that there would have been very occasional or freak survivals. So I was genuinely surprised to read that no confirmed season to season survivals have been recorded within living or documented memory. Fascinating stuff!

Good to get confirmataion about the 1979 patch on August 18th. I can remember seeing that from the M6 at the 'end of August' but could not now confirm a precise date. I also thought it was in the Kirkland gulley but can now imagine it at Crowdundle.

The Helm wind [en.wikipedia.org] certainly helped that year, blasting the big easterly blizzards into the west facing gulleys. I can recall tales of 40' plus being deposited near the turn off to the Silverband mine near Green Castle (I think) on Great Dun Fell.

I agree re the little Ice Age, there must have been a good chance of survival on Cross Fell and probably Hellvellyn and elsewhere too, but i have never come across any documentary evidence. I haven't actually looked for any though!

Interesting what OAP says above about Teesdale. It does seem to be a snow pocket which is bourne out by its UK record for the deepest recorded snow depth in an inhabited area of 211cm in March 1947.

Just done a bit of searching to see if I could back up the 19th century claim didnt but found this from 1984 in New Scientist. Keep going down to the Lichens of Corie Garbh.

[books.google.co.uk]

I think where I got the idea of Cross Fell snow patches in the 19th century from was A H Griffin's Adventuring in Lakeland. Pages 162-163 cover skiing on Cross Fell and Great Dun Fell.

The following is an extract from the book.

The early geographers thought Cross Fell the highest mountain in England, and at one time it was believed to carry patches of eternal snow. In the middle of the eighteenth century the geographer George Smith went up Cross Fell in August and was most suprised not to find "even the least relicks of snow in places most likely for it". Early travellers had reported seeing snow drifts on Cross Fell, clearly visible from Penrith through out the summer

For fans of obsure English ski tow locations - p165 mentions the tow on the B6270 East of Nateby at the N. end of Mallerstang.

Still some patches of snow in the scottish lowlands. Not much though, more snow please!

Just back from a quick turn on the South Downs near Ditchling Beacon. Will post a report later. However, I climbed up one of the steep 'corries' and faced a metre high cornice! Never thought I'd see something like that this far south. Will keep an eye on it during the week.

Just added a 'backcountry' report. With pics of the cornice
[www.winterhighland.info]

Pictures?!

Firefly. Sorry. Tried uploading them twice but to no avail. Did the selection, editing the text etc and upload. Strange.

I got a bit obsessed by the Cross Fell area and it's snow patches a few years ago and posted regularly on Firefly's thread in 2010. That year was exceptional compared with the previous recent years and I recorded the final snow melting on June the 14th at Cross Fell Well. This is a shallow hollow to the north of the summit plateau and seems to regularly hold snow the longest. What was more interesting was the low lying sites in Kirkland Gill that held snow until around the 6th June if I remember correctly. These patches were at around 500m altitude but are deep hollows and were filled by the easterly gales easlier in the winter. There were dozens of other patches in the area that lasted into late May, many at low altitudes.

Attachments: 8 Crossfell Well 13-6-10.JPG (237kB)  

SussexSnow, pictures are now showing. The were on the server, but no images were associated with the report, the DB meta data suggests the report update wasn't completed. Did you have any timeout or connection problems?