I cant see a problem here, in fact there is an opportunity to educate on off-piste techniques and precautions. My own view is that Coire Dubh is slightly different as it's easily accessed but presents all the mountain dangers. Therefore skiers should have the equipment and know how to use it.

Easy Gully is skied fairly often as is the route over to Aonach Beag and beyond or down. Anyone going there should be properly equipped and have the experience to deal with those mountain environments.

Experience tells you a lot and when skiing into Coire Dubh it's obvious that it's not a normal ski run and definitely a place to be a mountaineer.

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For campervan hire in Scotland visit [www.albacampervans.com] - Bhanaichean Campachaidh ann an Alba

I have seen people complain justifiably about people failing to adhere to basic good practice in backcountry travel in Summit Gully and on Spikes when conditions by accounts definitely warranted it - the principle complaint being from people in a group intending to go down one at a time, then whole other groups coming down together so the place resembled a busy piste.

Coire Dubh is lift served in a manor that can bring large numbers of people to the Coire rim via the Summit and Warren's Tows in good conditions and good weather, to an extant that maintaining such backcountry principles just becomes untenable. In bounds ski area management often comes down to the fact that terrain and it's risks has to be managed in order to accommodate the numbers present.

The original intention was I've been told to regularly piste Winger Wall, this process in itself would deal with issues of cornice build up and the impact of the machines on the snowpack would itself reduce risks of deeper seated instabilities within the snowpack. The rest of the Coire would be left as is as far as conditions allowed, but prepared and controlled access ways would funnel the majority of visitors.

The Braveheart Chair came into it's own in Spring, I've never ridden it when you could even get close to skiing out of Coire Dubh and most days I have ridden it have been in May. The situation that developed regarding the traverse out slashed days of operation and I don't see some of the suggestions here doing anything positive for that figure, potentially the opposite.

Donald, Kirkwood, CA has 3 miles of continuous ridge line with the same issues as Coire Dubh, it is all inbounds, it is all managed terrain and there is no expectation that people within the ski area will have backcountry gear. There won't be 30 people a day without the kit, there will be thousands on a busy weekend.

This video gives you a feel for the terrain involved:



Provide that terrain to people that don't have the Backcountry skills and some (but only some) will become interested in acquiring these skills - that is a significant opportunity for Scottish Skiing, but not if you need the skills to first access the more challenging easily lift served terrain.

Expedition Kirkwood: [www.kirkwood.com]



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 22.48hrs Tue 21 Feb 12 by alan.

You're losing the battle with this ramble.

I've never really understood the existing 'piste' map at Aonach Mor that applies to over the backs. If they were pisted entry points into the Coire Dubh, then fine, you could say some were easier than others (ie red/black or whatever) but they're not.
They're all dependent on that day's conditions, even the time of day.

What might have been an easy and popular entry one day could easily be the hardest the next with an overnight freeze railroad entry.

On the existing map, Spikes and Summit are marked as 'yellow' routes, which indicates to me that a far higher degree of awareness should be required than any of the 'marked' red/black entries in Coire Dubh, yet despite that, I've more often found the marked entries into Coire Dubh way more intimidating, simply due to freeze/thaw effects on the entry points which are much more prevalent there than say in Summit Gully (due mainly to cornice).

Seems sensible to me to mark them all as 'itineraries', but then again, does it really make that much difference?
Most folk when skiing there first time will have a look and shy away from the backs, unless they're with folk that have experience of it or they have the ability that they'll know they're capable of managing it. And full map/compass use and snow awareness should be the minimum for all but the superheroes going in there.

Spike and Summits runs are 'off piste' run outside the ski area - and always will be.

An Itinerary run, however, is usually a marked off piste run that is still within the ski area boundary. Ski patrol still assess the conditions (open / closed status) and will provide assitance in event of an accident. The piste map for St Anton or Verbier show several 'Itinerary' runs. These vast areas, such as Vallon D'Arby or Tortin, are 'relativly safe' off piste areas for the masses that have been avalanche controlled - even though all hazards (rocks etc) are not marked and individual skiers must take some responsability.

The only downside to 'Itinerary' runs is that the exact definition can differ from country to country. A dotted yellow line on the piste map, whilst generally meaning off piste, can mean different things, especially in terms of insurance or mountain rescue.

If the back corries became Itinerary runs (dotted yellow line) then Spikes & Summit would need to be marked clearly as 'out of bounds' using a different colour coding.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 16.07hrs Wed 22 Feb 12 by Doug_Bryce.

My feeling is that the main Coire Dubh should remain marked runs, I think the current system works well and totally agree with Alan that changing them to itineraries would put off many skiers and boarders. In general those of us on here are pretty good skiers/boarders and we have a vested interested in getting them redefined as it would give us a quieter playground, for the good of the ski centre I hope this doesn't happen.

I would however move Spikes and summit into the ski territory and mark them as itinerary runs.

Is the new piste beastie not a winchcat? Could they not resume pisting the entrance at yellow belly/backtrack like I believe they used to do? They are pretty tame runs if the cornice has been cut away.

What I find amusing about all this is that if the original proposal for the Nevis Range had gone through we would be having this discussion about the Goose and Alpha runs whilst all the begginers would be learning at the bottom of spikes gully.

I sort of agree with that (CMorrison) but being a good skier in a technical sense in no way means that the skills and know how are also there for mountaineering situations. In fact, I'd say there is almost no relationship and that many good mountaineers are not good skiers and vice versa.



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For campervan hire in Scotland visit [www.albacampervans.com] - Bhanaichean Campachaidh ann an Alba

Nothings wasted in debate and despite not agreeing with Alan on this one, how else do you get consensus opinion without first having a lively debate for which the forum is a good medium. No flaming as well which is great! My last take on the topic is simple. In new snow conditions I can do stability tests, look at the SAIS forecast and hug other skiers tracks and still might get taken out which is the nature of off piste - piss or get off the pot. The only factor I can control after dropping in is the consequences and that requires me, and folk around me to have a shovel, probe and beacon. Many folk died on the Nid simply because they were there and victim triggered it - still Scotland's greatest single loss of life in an avalanche. The localised potential further round is just as high and could be just as devastating so requires the type of skier that has developed the back country skillset and mindset. This is where the growth is in skiing for the future IMHO as folk need to earn their turns. NR are right to market the back as its their best asset and are obliged to do it with safety as paramount, which they are doing. They also need to keep the eejits out on the days when the avlx risk is greater than SAIS 2 on that aspect for example.

Its seems a bit like Tuckerman Ravine but with a lift to the top. Stable days hundreds ski it and yet its claimed lots of lives over the years from folk who couldn't tell shit from windslab or who went for a 1,000 footer on the ice. I doubt anyone could prevent it, but you can at least indicate that the average holiday joe on hire kit with his mum and dad are not on a groomed red. So that's why it should be the yellow/orange dotted line as an itinery.




[crankitupgear.blogspot.com]

99% of people who purchase a lift pass are recreational skiers/boarders, not mountaineers. Most of them don't go near the mountains apart from their few days skiing per year - calling them eejits is out of line.
There is no difference between a recreational skier looking at the Glenshee piste map and deciding to ski the tiger black than there is the same person looking at the Nevis map and deciding to ski the back corries - yes with our local knowledge there is a big difference, but not to the average skier.

I bought my first pieps transciever 15 years ago - was I an eejit to ski without one before this?

Yes the piste map should be changed to highlight the difference between a black piste and the back corries. Davy- calling customers eejits won't achieve much. These people are potentially your future customers and comments like that could scare them away.

I've ski toured and climbed for over 10years and skied and hill walked for over 25 years. The only time I've used a beacon was in norway and the alps. I've never seen the need to spend the best part of 500 on one for me and the wife, I just hire them. In Scotland I don't see the need....this season speaks for itself. I understand people will shoot me down for saying this but I'm not convinced many if any lives have been saved here because the victim was wearing a beacon. If anything a lot of these new off piste skiers think by having one they can go anywhere.
Regarding the changing of the piste map it makes sense to have dotted lines, at the very least people will know it's not a pisted run.
Hope we get some more snow soon so I can check out the backs...still never managed!..



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 18.15hrs Wed 22 Feb 12 by Andy.

Nothing like a good debate with a clear yes and no camp.

I can see why NR want to bring this in and seems like it may have been planned for a while. Is it now a fait accompli?

The present state of play has generally served the place well has it not up until now for all snow sport types and while only time will tell what impact the changes will have, it does leave me wondering what this will mean for the long term future of the Braveheart which I’d personally like to see running more rather than less.

A good day in the Back Corries is hard to beat and with the Braveheart running it’s simply the icing on the cake in opening up a window on the backs to be enjoyed by the many rather than the few.

eejits being tongue in cheek and a reference to the less well capable skier who might be tempted.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 21.39hrs Wed 22 Feb 12 by crankitupgearglencoe.

Well precisely because there is a culture of not using them. It becomes self-fulfilling.

But your statement tends to suggest there have been loads of beaconless skier avalanche deaths in Scotland, which is far from the case - in fact, I struggle to recollect there being a single avalanche-related fatality, with or without transceiver. Not saying there haven't been many lucky escapes and near misses, but still...