Been plenty of climbers killed by avalanches in one way or another.

There must be a handful of skier/boarder related fatalities at least. Some of the close calls I've heard of have been pretty extreme.

Its important though to keep respect in the risk as some of the Avalanches that have happened this season already have been of the lethal variety. And it really wouldnt take much for someone to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Right..........re Cammy's post above.

Have a look at the SAIS map of avalanches.

Anyway, just to say that I see no problem with the NR proposal.

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For campervan hire in Scotland visit [www.albacampervans.com] - Bhanaichean Campachaidh ann an Alba

"Been plenty of climbers killed by avalanches in one way or another. "

Yup, but how many would have been saved by wearing a beacon?...probably some but I believe the nature of the terrain in Scotland means many die of head injuries, being swept off ledges etc. I would say if you have them then use them but don't think wearing them makes you invincible.

Sure there aren't that many people out in Scotland as compared with the Alps and the conditions are such that full burials are more rare. Doesn't mean they cannot happen or that people stay home when conditions are such that full burial is a possibility. There are relatively low fatalities as it is from avalanches in comparison with the number of people skiing in the backcountry.

There's video from this year of skiers triggering a slide which thankfully didn't catch the person in question or his friends downslope. It isn't that deep but it funnels into a terrain trap so definitely had the potential to completely bury someone.

[www.youtube.com]

Tranceivers aren't there to ward off avalanches they are there so that in the instance you make the wrong decision and get caught in one and get fully or mostly buried your friends can find you and hopefully save your life.

I ski/tour off piste in Scotland - mainly Cairngorm, but also elsewhere and don't use a beacon and I often tour alone. I do take care with checking the forecast and Sais reports and will tailor my routes to conditions. I've also been on the MCS avalanche awareness course (in a year when there was very little snow to play/practice on). I queried my none use of a beacon on the course. The instructor wasn't particularly worried and reckoned there was more danger in the fact that I don't ussually carry and axe and crampons when touring. He also commented that burials were rare in Scotland, the biggest risk was being carried over drops/smashed against terrain features whilst being carried by an avalanche, and the best advice was not to be caught in an avalanche by knowing the conditions and good route choice in line with prevailing conditions.

That advice might be different if the type of skiing I mostly do was different - ie steep gulleys when the avalanche conditions were higher.

Yes SAIS is a must but dont rely on their forecasts 100%. Avalanches can still occur even when there is minimal risk and be just as deadly. It depends on local conditions. So personal knowledge/experience is just as vital.

And allot of tourers will pass through danger zones at some point, its hard not to most of the season. And although it seems this season has been pretty safe on the whole its probably been as risky as any with 90% of the time snow being either fresh V/light (ball bearing like at times) with it being cold or v/dense & heavy during periods of thaw.

Full burials are not common here but are not impossible. It would be bad luck to be fully buried. However even with partial or non burrials beacons can still be useful. Poor visibilty being one scenario and very bumpy terrain being another. The casualty may be unconcious, particularly if head injury is a possibility, and therefor would not be able to call for help. Youd be surprised how diffiicult it can be to find a casualty even lying down in the snow during poor conditions. Not helped by drifting snow of course. Why would people even go out in poor conditions? Well it comes by surprise mostly which is probably one of the biggest killers in the Scottish Mountains.

Beacons arnt as much of a necessity here in Scotland most of the time when compared to the Alpes. But if you do have one itd be a good idea to wear it, just in case. As with Scotland you just dont know.

Put it this way you shouldn't be skiing a line with a transceiver that you wouldn't without one. The key is knowing and avoiding terrain that has potential to be an avalanche hazard for any given set of conditions.

All the tranceiver (plus shovel and probe) does is give you a chance to save a friends life or have your own life saved in the event you are buried. If you ski alone then at least recovering your corpse will be easier.

Given that you cannot judge with certainty the chances of a slope sliding or the consequences if it does it's prudent to carry the kit despite the generally low chances of getting slid if you make good decisions. This is also true in the Alps or elsewhere.

I think the point about trauma being more likely on Scottish conditions is quite apt. How many people carry splints with them or know how to treat that sort of injury?

This is true but most of the time you wouldnt be able to get someone who has suffered Trauma safely off the mountain without use a helicopter or mountain rescue team. And if its the MR or rescue chopper coming then youd be just as well keeping the casualty warm & safe until they arrive.

SAM splints are a great thing to have as an addition to a mountain first aid kit to treat broken bones or similar. Their quite compact and you can shape them to support just about any body part. Though as said if you suspect spinal or head injurys then don't try and get the casualty off the mountain yourself.

I beleive the number of mountain rescuers to get one person safely off a mountain (without a chopper) is surpisingly high. Cant remember the exact figure but its in the region of 20.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 15.41hrs Thu 23 Feb 12 by cammyammy.

Quote "But your statement tends to suggest there have been loads of beaconless skier avalanche deaths in Scotland, which is far from the case - in fact, I struggle to recollect there being a single avalanche-related fatality, with or without transceiver. Not saying there haven't been many lucky escapes and near misses, but still... "

If you are talking skiers, then there have been literally dozens of both minor and serious injuries over the years that were well known but the folk did not want them recorded. The medium to record them (unlike MRT) was not there either until some folk were brave enough to put there hands up and tell patrols or the SAIS. These include complete burials and a lot of luck. If you talking climbers then well over 100 fatals in the last 3 decades and one successful beacon find on Buachaille Etive Glencoe. Ski/Freeride touring is a growth part of the sport and most involved are mountaineers, but that is changing as folk who are more ski background get into it. I would hope that it was possible to prevent a death from asphyxia by education, rather than be writing here at some point why something happened. I dont see any reason why folk should think Scotland is any different to the Haute alpes or anywhere else so why not take the same thought and kit process's. It might take a fatality of a skier to change minds, Visit someone with a spinal injury from avalanche and your take might be different. That white fluffy stuff twists and breaks and tears. Avoiding that alone is worth a thought so slope assessment, safe travel all play a part. The beacon, shovel probe is for you to find the "Andys" of this world.

Again I declare an interest as I sell this stuff and teach it. But look at BCA and you will see that our ethos is preventing drama not just selling. Some great free downloads



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 15.22hrs Thu 23 Feb 12 by crankitupgearglencoe.

I am actually in disbelief that people think it is safer to ski backcountry in scotland than the alps... Its a maritime climate (usually) and there for rapid changes occur all the time to the snow pack !

[www.haggistrap.co.uk]
have a look at these for some perspective on what can offer in terms of sliders.

In my like 17 years of climbing and skiing in scotland and all over i have been involved in one proper slide and seen numerous others. There are not many folk I know who are active (i mean out most weekends etc) who have not set one or more off over the years.

They happen and if you skiing powder it will probably happen to you at one point or another, no one is right all the time.

carrying some avo kit and know how to use it could save your life or you mates or partners etc.

a couple hundred quid is worth my life and anyone i know!

em

"The beacon, shovel probe is for you to find the "Andys" of this world"

I carry a shovel, probe and have quite a bit of experience in the hills in winter...doesn't make me an expert but it wouldn't matter if i was. I don't have £500 to spend on 2 beacons, perhaps one day i will. My point was there seems to be a growing number of folk who think having shiny expensive kit allows them to go anywhere in any conditions. As i've said if you have the kit use it but if you don't then you shouldn't be looked upon as being grossly irresponsible or negligent.
Sorry if i've come across as a guy who doesn't rate the risks in scotland or - far from it. I've had a very lucky escape in the mountains and have climbed with people who've come a cropper.
Lets not make this place into UKclimbing by slagging folk off....everyone has their own view on things.

Personally a avalanche bag thingy would be of more use than a beacon as I ski alone quite often.

interesting article here on avalanche equipment.
[pistehors.com]

I think Alan was making a comment on americain styled trail systems earlier in this thread. Just to say I say off an avalanche on a trail in a US resort on Saturday*. Likewise I have seen avalacnhes cover pistes in the alps, and know people who have died skiing on the poiste when hit by an avalanche.

Not sure what my point is but to say i agree with the stance Nevis range have taken and the majority of this thread and the back corries should be marked as off-piste and efforts should be made to make sure people skiier there are both educated and equiped.



* was a classic setup with an icy base, 12 inches of fresh snow blown by a strong widn making a wind slab on a 40 degree slope with an icy base. I had aimed to ski the trees by the side of the trail which I estimed to be safeer and with better snow, but the snow sucked and I saw a suspect pitch which I ski cut (while basically holding onto a large tree) and set off a small avalanche. I decided to exit the trees back on the trail and found the same conditions with a large wind slab on an icy base, tilted at 40 degrees. With no way down I purposley ski cut across the top of a slight convex bulge setting of a much larger slide as I safely and quickly traversed into a thick patch of trees on the other side. The ski cut was exceptionally easy and relatively safe manouvre sicne about 2 feet above my ski was the bare ice and so nothing above me would slide. 2 ft crown, 20 foot starting cut widened to 40feet and travelled about 100 feet down slope. With the fresh snow gone I enjoyed the icy descent to the bottom of the slope. the tril was completely open and when taking the lift back p a large group of twelve-teen snow boarders went down the trail so i was glad I ski cut the wind slab and triggered the slide.





Edited 2 times. Last edit at 18.07hrs Mon 27 Feb 12 by timstirling.