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firefly


Posts: 2142
Joined: May 2006
Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 12.31hrs on Sat 29 Sep 12
In Weather last month I had published the annual snow patch review for England and Wales 2012. The upshot of my research over the spring was that the last snow to vanish this year was in mid-May. This is not unusual by the standards of recent years. However, out of the blue I received a note from a chap called Edward Morgan, a pot-holer. He went on to tell me that I may need to revise the record, as he had come across a patch of snow 10 x 5 x 0.5 metres on 4th June!

The patch in question was located in a 60 metre deep fissure, called Eldon Hole (located at 420 metres, SK115809). I had never heard of this location, though I do remember reading on here that PeterS talked of snow persisting in the Peak District from one winter to the next. I thought this was an lad wives' tale. It appears I was wrong! A record from the Cave Research Group in 1954 records that the very heavy snow of early 1947 filled the fissure to an extent that the subsequent summer and autumn didn't melt it. Amazingly, though, it didn't melt in 1948 either, such was the volume from the year before. There is a snippet account here [books.google.co.uk] Another account of this can be found here [books.google.co.uk]

Here is a picture of the snow from June 20th, 2010 [www.flickr.com]

More research requires to be done on this, and I'm already planning my visit their in 2013! I thnk we can say with some certainty that the snow did indeed survive in 1947, and perhaps in other snowy years. It certainly answers the question "has snow ever survived in England until winter?" An amazing discovery, and it begs the question, "any others?"
rickmanchester


Posts: 126
Joined: Jan 2011
Last Visited: 09:38
3rd Feb 2019
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 14.53hrs on Sat 29 Sep 12
Firefly, since joining this forum and reading this thread on a daily basis, I've always wondered and thought about snow lasting longer than you have documented in the Peak District, and hills around Manchester. 2 years ago we had decent snowfalls and high winds. I was up on the snake pass (A57) weeks after this event and found numerous places where snow was lying, and it was very deep. The ground up there is peat, and the channels that are formed from the water are 6-10M deep in places. One place was very deep, I would have thought 6m still, and that was in April. I really do believe there are places like mentioned above that could, under the right conditions give lasting snow from one winter to the next. If you come down next spring summer, let me know as I will come with you.
firefly


Posts: 2142
Joined: May 2006
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 08.06hrs on Sun 30 Sep 12
Thanks, Rick. Will do.

I'm going to try and get this confirmed, but an astonishing report from November 2010 [butteredbadger.com]

Old snow in England in November? Scarcely believable.
rickmanchester


Posts: 126
Joined: Jan 2011
Last Visited: 09:38
3rd Feb 2019
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 08.50hrs on Sun 30 Sep 12
That would link in with the heavy snowfall and high winds I mentioned. It was the end of winter 2010 that I am relying to. Ive got pictures somewhere of the snowfall so I will try and dig them out.
GeordieDrover


Posts: 1
Joined: Sep 2012
Last Visited: 18:49
30th Sep 2012
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 16.54hrs on Sun 30 Sep 12
Hi folks,

Been doing a wee bit of research and found this cracking video of Eldon Hole from June 2012: [www.youtube.com] - Snow makes an appearance from 1:06-1:22.
oldagedpredator


Posts: 634
Joined: Mar 2006
Last Visited: 20:16
2nd Feb 2019
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 18.16hrs on Sun 30 Sep 12
The lost snow patch of England! Might be worth getting in touch with one of the local caving groups or the shop in Buxton to see if there is more information. There were some periods of heavy snow this year but nothing to the extent of 2010. The location does fit with the aspect of the main snow holding areas on Rushup Edge to Eldon Hill this year.
firefly


Posts: 2142
Joined: May 2006
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 19.19hrs on Sun 30 Sep 12
A photo from 27 March 2010, which appears to show the hole completely filled with snow. 60 metres of depth? [picasaweb.google.com]

*EDIT* The photo above isn't of Eldon Hole, but of a nearby dell.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 20.01hrs Sun 30 Sep 12 by firefly.
h11lly


Posts: 2150
Joined: Dec 2002
Last Visited: 21:43
18th Apr 2019
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 23.58hrs on Sun 30 Sep 12
Interesting.
My thoughts are going along the lines of if it can happen in the limestone potholes of the Peak District why not in higher potholes of the Yorkshire Dales too ?

Helen
rickmanchester


Posts: 126
Joined: Jan 2011
Last Visited: 09:38
3rd Feb 2019
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 08.27hrs on Mon 1 Oct 12
Your probably right Helen. The Malham area is covered in limestone, with huge holes in the ground in places. If someone can find out areas where we know that snow is long lasting around the Pennines, then I will be more than happy to go checking and measuring them at weekends etc. obviously the one at Eldon Hole I couldn't do, but for surface reports I would be more than happy.

I'm sure that there is an area of with Kinder Scout/Bleaklow which hold snow for quite a while. They are both over 600m high so it's possible.
timstirling


Posts: 520
Joined: Feb 2003
Last Visited: 02:20
12th Sep 2016
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 17.12hrs on Mon 1 Oct 12
Aroudn the wrold the best snow holding places are generally these ice caves.
In Lava beds national monument (northern california) there are some deep caves formed by lava flows, at the bottom of some of them are layers of ice that last all year. This is a desert areas, with temperatures in the summers months well over 30*C, yet a 2-3 minute stroll from th surface and the temperatures are close to freezing in the cave.

I also saw an ice-hollow above the town of Revelstoke in BC, Canada. Although this was at a litle altitude in the summer the temperatures were in the high 20s, a beautiful meadow full of lowers. There was a deep cut in a large rock (probably a glacial erratci), and a slight hollow at the base. The hollow was filled with snow and ice 10-20ft deep in mid-sepember. I spoke to a rnager ther and they said the snow never melts out.


Any cave that can get wind blown snow is gong to fill right uo and turn into a freezer.


edog2009


Posts: 146
Joined: May 2009
Last Visited: 09:15
24th Jul 2017
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 18.31hrs on Mon 1 Oct 12
Another exciting ice cave! Incredible to think that there are still locations like this to discover in the UK.

I've been to the ice cave location on Mount Revelstoke (called the 'Ice Box', good photo here: [www.summitpost.org]) - you could drive up to the summit of the mountain at 1900m in 1999 (you have to take a shuttle bus now, I believe). When I was there it was June however, and the whole summit was still covered in snow!

For a round up of these locations worldwide, see this posting on my blog:

[www.edwardboyle.com]
DrHosking


Posts: 427
Joined: Jul 2004
Last Visited: 16:08
18th Mar 2019
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 12.41hrs on Tue 2 Oct 12
I can see this happening in this country somewhere, there are numerouse examples in the alps and across europe of "ice caves" at relatively low altitudes with snow and ice surviving. THe Eiskapelle ("Ice Chapel") in Germany lies at 930m and they class it as a permanent snowfield, said to be the lowest in the Alps. Its fed by avalanches but still a remarkably low altitude for such a feature.

[en.wikipedia.org]

JanA


Posts: 233
Joined: Jan 2008
Last Visited: 16:03
10th Apr 2017
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 01.13hrs on Thu 4 Oct 12
h11lly Wrote:

if it can happen in the limestone potholes of the Peak District why not in higher potholes of the Yorkshire Dales too ?



To the best of my knowledge the Dales potholes don’t hold snow in the way that Eldon Hole does.
Potholing was my main sport for 4-5 years. I potholed fairly extensively in the Dales and quite a bit in Derbyshire; Eldon is the only pot (in UK) I remember having old snow into the summer. I went down there in summer of either 1981 - or possibly 1982 and it definitely had snow then.
I am guessing that the Dales pots are too ‘active’ i.e. have water and strong draughts going through them which will rapidly remove any accumulated snow.



firefly


Posts: 2142
Joined: May 2006
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 06.39hrs on Thu 4 Oct 12
I had a reply from the chappie who was responsible for the November 2010 report I mention above.

"Yes that was the correct date, I was on the trip- i'd say from memory the snow block was perhaps somewhere in the region of 4-5m square but this is only from my very fuzzy recolection. I will be seeing Tim who took photos on that trip this week so i'll ask him if he has one of the snow- if he does, i'll forward it on to you."

Heavy snow fell during the last week in November 2010 all over Britain, and there's a high degree of probability that this hole would have received a considerable amount of it, thereby preserving the old. It is a very reasonable inference, therefore, that the snow persisted in 2010. Quite remarkable.
DrHosking


Posts: 427
Joined: Jul 2004
Last Visited: 16:08
18th Mar 2019
Re: Eldon Hole, Peak District - snow lasts till winter in 1947
Date Posted: 08.49hrs on Thu 4 Oct 12
firefly Wrote:
I had a reply from the chappie who was responsible for the November 2010 report I mention above.

"Yes that was the correct date, I was on the trip- i'd say from memory the snow block was perhaps somewhere in the region of 4-5m square but this is only from my very fuzzy recolection. I will be seeing Tim who took photos on that trip this week so i'll ask him if he has one of the snow- if he does, i'll forward it on to you."

Heavy snow fell during the last week in November 2010 all over Britain, and there's a high degree of probability that this hole would have received a considerable amount of it, thereby preserving the old. It is a very reasonable inference, therefore, that the snow persisted in 2010. Quite remarkable.


as you said remarkable! I feel we may have another place required for regular trips during the spring and Summer to see how the snow is holding out!
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