Hi everybody,

It seems that global warming is having a very real impact on the climate in Britain, with winters becoming very erratic. This year we have had lots of snowfall, but lots of instant thaws too. How far away are the winters when the snow becomes so marginal that the lift operators pull the plug?

I think a lot of the blame (if not most of the blame) for the state of British snowsports has to lie with the operators themselves.

Ticket sales should be computerised. you should be able to buy a lift ticket on the internet in ADVANCE to stop the horrible queues. Ditto equipment hire. This may mean you get a email from the operator saying "sorry that there isn't enough snow to open and here's a refund". But at least you're not freezing your balls off on some mountainside.

Ticket prices should be dependent on available terrain. Only 20% of the mountain open? Then only pay 20% of the ticket price. Simple.

I've lived and worked in Australia for a few winters, and snowboarded there too (in Thredbo). Now, if anything, the winters in New South Wales are even more marginal than here in Britain. But they seem to make the best of it. Lots (and I mean lots) of snowmaking on frosty nights for instance. How many frosty, snow free nights have to be wasted before snow making is HEAVILY invested in? And I mean lining the length of the pistes with guns. A lot of guns could have been bought for the price of that funicular! I agree that a sustained thaw will wipe anything out, but Thredbo seems to survive days, even weeks on end with temperatures above zero.

I also think there should be a very real, concerted effort, to plant trees on the mountains. I know this is difficult, given the wild weather, but Scotland's mountains were forested in the past. Trees would give protection to any snow lying, and also give the mountains a more beautiful appearance. I want to see more Scots Pines in Scotland!

Now it is easier and cheaper for those who live in the south (like myself) to get to the Alps, than to get to the Cairngorms, the operators must stop fleecing us (like they have for the last 20 years) and start enticing us. For that we need better managed mountains (even if that means making the ski areas smaller).

I get the impression that the operators don't actually care about snowsports, they care about making as much money as possible, for doing the least amount of work as possible.

If anybody is interested in how the Aussies do it:

www.thredbo.com.au

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Post Edited (15:49 hrs on Mon 22 Mar 04)

The Southern UK snowsports market is not that significant to the future of Scottish Snowsports, only VisitScotland will tell you otherwise. The critical markets are the local and day-tripper market or short stay visitors to a lesser degree, but the proportion of trade for week long holidays has always been relatively low.

The most significant factor in this is not climate or the lift operators, but political. It's cheaper to fly to Europe, because a much smaller part of your journey occurs in the UK! People from the south complaining about what it costs to get to or travel inthe Highlands wears a bit thin, just look at fuel prices here, the highest in the world and we have to pay them 52weeks of the year... !

That's one significant disadvantage the Scottish Highlands are at from a tourisim stand point. Dealing with snowsports more specifically, there is not a level playing field, compared to the rest of the EU. NO alpine lift companies pay VAT, here your £25 lift pass sees £5 go straight to the UK Govt! Given that public transport is zero rated, this is subject to ongoing legal disputes.

The snow making issue is down to climate, though improvements in nossle technology in just the last couple of years have may have tipped the balance in favour of large scale snow making being possible and viable, (CML is conducting specific climatic monitoring on this front.)

Not getting on to trees in another thread, but climate not de-forestation is the reason for the tree-line being below 2000ft.

Interestingly I've seen thredbo get the sort of bashings on sno-info that are usually reserved for CML on this forum!! (www.ski.com.au)

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Surely we cannot complain about the effects of global warming AND the high price of petrol?

I don't complain about the price of getting to the Scottish Highlands, there is no place in the world that I would rather take a holiday, winter or summer, regardless of price (and I've been all over the world). I've boarded at Lecht twice and each time was a fantastic experience.

I agree with all your other points though. Thredbo does get a critical bashing by Australian snowsporters. Having snowboarded at both Thredbo and Cairngorm, I still think that the Australians seem to make the best of marginal weather more than we do.

Am complaining about the dispraportinately high cost of fuel compared to Southern parts of the UK!

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fuel is cheap in Elgin ,filled up last week at tescos in Elgin and it was 4pence per litre cheaper than in Inverness ,the cashier told me that the fuel had been delivered from Invernes -things might change when Morrisons takes over Safeway in Inverness.

I travel regularly from the North of Scotland to the south coast of england for sailing competitions with my son - we book in advance and often get flights for under £5.00. In fact we now book ahead and if we can't actually travel it doesn't matter as we hardly lose any money . I have this winter flown up from Bournemouth in the morning and been skiing at Glencoe by lunchtime - Glencoe tickets have regularly been £15 this year - cheaper than an hour in a 'snowdome' somewhere!!

No one fancy using less polluting ways of transport like the train rather than flying or driving everywhere?

I'm constantly amazed by how so many people go on about global warming, but very few seem to be doing anything to counter it. Like how some folk say to paraphrase "I don't see what the point of going to Scotland is, coz of climate change you can't rely on the snow anymore, but I get a return ticket to Geneva for 20 quid!" I don't know of these people realise, but they are just propagating the cycle!

OK rant over! ))

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Perhaps when there is a UK govt or the Scottish Exec has the balls, and the vision to do what's needed with rail transport and basically start from scratch then people will have little need for internal air travel.

How can france build the TGV Med for what it takes to get trains running at a 110mph on the West Coast mainline? It's crazy, transport in the UK is a joke, it's third world infrastructure, and it's falling apart rapidly, we will start to pay very dearly for this in the not too distant future.

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It was raised at an International Conference looking at t he effects of global warming on europes low lying ski resorts - that if small resorts local to major towns close (ie Glencoe - Glasgow). Then the tendency is for folk to fly to resorts further afield hence causing a real problem contributing to more global warming etc etc.

By the way I fly to the south of england for my son's sailing because despite Scotland having some of the best coastal sailing in Britain - if you want to compete , train and sail at a high level then you have to go to the south of england - and train travel though preferable is prohibitively expensive.

Alan. I couldn't agree with you more. There should be a spinal high-speed rail line north-south, the length of this nation. It should be possible to reach the Highlands from London in less than half the time it currently takes.

I have prattled on about VAT on lifts in the UKin the past.
I would love someone to launch a challege to the treasury to see if this anomally can be pointed out to HM gov.
Zero rating of VAT on uplift would be a huge transfomation loccally for lift Co,s

The rediculous situation is Richard Bransons Virgin Atlantic Airline ( and Virgin Rail) pay less Vat than Cairngorm Mountain Ltd!

QUOTE in VAT notes. Any transport means which can carry 10 or more passengers is subject to ZERO rate. To my way of thinking all ski tows carry more than 10.

The interpretation of the law is an issue. Obviously operators have never challenged HM customs and excise, or have they?

Maybe now is the time to launch a challenge when 40500 civil servants are about to be sacked and Customes and Excise and Inland Revenue are about to be merged. Also take it to Strasbourg European Court as no other operator in the EU is subject to VAT, why is the UK out of line on this taxation issue?

PS let me know if anyone is going to go for a challenge. If not i will launch one as ........ I run a ski facility, the lift is subject to VAT.

Cheap flights are not the only transport threat to Scottish Ski areas.
I was at Waterloo Station in London yesterday.
The home of Eurostar, dozens of people were trekking down the excalators with skis and boards all bound for the Alps.

A few hours by TGV to Bourg, Aime etc with conections into Germany, for Austria and Switzerland.

All on pick up timetables at the station.

I travelled up from London last night on the Scotrail Sleeper to Aviemore, it was fine..... Any thoughts of joint marketing by CML and Scotrail, or ski operators in the Aviemore area, to bring people up from the south, stressing the environmental benefits of not blasting massive amounts of co2 into the atmosphere from an easyjet fiver special and then actually getting some snow with a clear environmental mind.

ps does anyone know how cheap airlines can stay in business?

They should pay a massive environmental penalty in my opinion.

Why all the anti-budget airline chat?? They've totally changed modern travel for the better (IMHO). Anyway I agee with the environmental argument but it applies to all airlines not just budget. Maybe (another) tax charge on every flight based on distance travelled? Ring fenced money to be spent on better rail links and carbon sink projects.

Back on topic though, as Alan always says the industry here is based around local customers travelling relatively short distances for a day or weekends snowsports. We should be looking at ways to encourage more people who live in scotland to come to the resorts. There must be over 2 million people who live with in a 2 hour drive of one of the resorts. Surely that's enough for a viable business??

Maybe the resorts should take a leaf out of the budget airlines book and offer reduced lift passes, hire etc if you book in advance, ski off peak etc?

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Bill
Pardon me if I play devil's advocate for a moment.
I'm a Londoner, former Cairngorm instructor, and was up at Glencoe a few weeks back when one run was operating. Scottish mountains stir me as much as the Matterhorn.
But why on earth would anyone from London want to get on a Scotrail sleeper to ski gale-swept slopes with patchy snow?
The marketing you're advocating was in full swing in 1974 to 1976 when I worked on Cairngorm, sometimes living up there, often 'commuting' by sleeper on a Euston-Newtonmore ticket.
There was loads of snow and thousands of southerners used to come up. T-bars weren't seen as antiquated then. 4, 6, and 8 seat chairlifts didn't exist to compete with them. Scotland could compete, for those hardy enough to enjoy it. The food on the mountain was crap, the accommodation wasn't brilliant, Aviemore's apres-ski was...er...notable, but there were aspects of it that drew people back.
Seriously, why on earth would a Londoner, with the choice of a 10-hour Eurostar to the world's finest skiing want to trade it for an X-hour (assuming the high-speed line is ever built) train journey to inferior skiing at roughly the same cost? (often much more expensive when cheap last-minute deals are available to the French Alps)
As Alan says, Scottish skiing is now for locals, or southerners only in an exceptional season.
I wholeheartedly agree that European air travel should be replaced with rail travel, as soon as possible. The level of fuel burning and pollution is ludicrous.
This not to say that I don't recommend Scotland to fellow Londoners. My advice is always for people to head up in the spring, tour around the most beautiful scenery on earth (I mean it) and take any skiing as a bonus.
But you'd be amazed how few people down here have ever bothered to see the Highlands and the lochs. They will die in ignorance, but with memories of crummy Spanish resorts and their pubs and fish and chips eateries. And, if they're skiers, they will remember much Alpine scenery which is inferior to that squared by Glasgow, Fort William, Inverness and Perth (well, more of an irregular quadrilateral, I suppose)
Sadly, there's no escaping lack of snow as the grim reaper of Scottish skiing, and no amount of marketing can compensate.
That's all!

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Post Edited (13:59 hrs on Sun 21 Mar 04)

Quote "I would love someone to launch a challege to the treasury to see if this anomally can be pointed out to HM gov"

Apparently some of the ski areas (not cairngorm - see below) spent tens of thousands of pounds a year or 2 ago on legal fees to challenge the vat situation and were basically told to bog off
I believe cairngorm already pay less than the other centres in vat as the funicular (paid for in part by taxpayers) is classed as transport, not a ski-lift.

Either way - within the EU shouldn't all countries have the same laws on this to create a level playing field?