Optimistic thoughts about this subject but a bit of realism needs to be injected. It may be well below freezing on Cairngorm but its also blowing 40mph plus, have you ever seen a snow cannon working in winds like this? They don't as all the snow they blast out would be blow away!

I taught skiing for many years on Cairngorm in the early 90's and snow making came up often in conversation. But from what I understand CGM are not allowed to take water out of the burns which they would need to run the cannons fro environmental reasons and I would think due to its National Park status this would be even more the case these days.

Snow making also cost a lot of money. When Courmayeur got there cannons they had a cold spell in the end of November and spent one million pounds making snow, only for it to turn mild in early December and it all melted away. They now flick there cannons on less eagerly.

Quote:
It may be well below freezing on Cairngorm but its also blowing 40mph plus.

It was still air at all elevations when I posted last night. CML are allowed to take water out of the burns - otherwise there would be no catering and no toilets. Snowmaking's impact on the hydrological cycle isn't really that different from natural snow fall - precipitation is stored as snow on the mountain, thawing later to return to the water courses.

Snow cannons can work in 40mph winds - seen Kirkwood do it - type of guns could be important, but so is the snow being made. You wouldn't want to blast powder up in the air at the edge of the ski area, but you could certainly make heavier snow for base building. Firing snow cannons at right angles to the wind can improve efficency - the snow will blow, its a case of making snow in the right place so it blows somewhere useful, the vast majority of drifting happens within a few inches of the ground and snow fences will catch the machine made stuff too.

The cost is a question of economics (and the more automation and more extensive the infrastructure - the lower the operating costs as it requires much less staff time) if a ski area has no snow it makes no money. The question is - would snowmaking be better or worse than making no money? Answer - we don't know because the research and climate monitoring neccessary has not been done.

If the suggested four trial mannual fan guns had been in place there could well have been a complete run to the middle by now.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 10.22hrs Thu 8 Feb 07 by alan.

Quote: CML are allowed to take water out of
> the burns - otherwise there would be no catering
> and no toilets. Snowmaking's impact on the
> hydrological cycle isn't really that different
> from natural snow fall - precipitation is stored
> as snow on the mountain, thawing later to return
> to the water courses.

But from what I understand due to the quantity of water allowed to run any cannons CGM are not permitted to do this with water from the burns, however I may be wrong do you have any facts on this?

I also accept that the water is kept in the water cycle and it may seem an odd argument not to allow water to be used, buy how many other strange policies do you see implemented on the Gorm!

What is the news on the smnowmaking trial ,there will be lot of disapointed punters walking down the zig zags this weekend during the mid term holidays especialy after snow in the central belt.

True the ZigZags & top of Traverse have been crying out for a top up of snow, for a while.

But looking at the weather for weekend...you're likely to be blown off the hill on Saturday anyway, and there might be enough snowfall at the weekend, if it drifts favourably, to complete those sections and get them going.

But it would be good if these links to the Cas & mid-station, could be maintained by artificial means. - The ZigZags in particular look like they would hold manmade snow quite well.

A new cannon would dry a burn up pretty quick, dont think the burn could supply the flow for one...

U can use snow guns in high wind, the air/water ones can be kept close tae the ground, if its cold enough.. And u could determine where the wind is blowing and where it will get trapped with a bit of common sense, if you wanted tae make cash like the lecht..

There is also the potential for using the water leeching into the funicular tunnel. There seems to be quite a lot simply allowed to flow out unused. I believe some is used in the top station.

The trial proposed by CML was to be based around the pumping station at mid station with the idea that guns or cannons would be used to try and make the zig zags complete and thus provide an easy route to mid station.

As to the progress made on this. Who knows? We have seen no action on this despite Alan providing some data on costs/power and water requirements to CML. Hopefully we will be able to gain some insight into what's been done (or not) in the next few weeks. Watch this space.

Paul



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 19.23hrs Thu 8 Feb 07 by pfairbrother.

Any word?

I know I always have a dig at cairngorms but thats just me on wind up, would be good tae see them get this aff the ground.... And have any of yous/or cairngorm been keeping a note on the number of days that snowmaking could have been used, I was planning on doing it this year, but a few other things are eating up ma time...

It's been a steady -4°c at the Summit of CairnGorm since early evening yesterday, there was a frost at all levels last night. From the limited data available it looks as if last night (and the night before) would have allowed some snow making.

At least limited use of a system could have allowed for some key links to have been improved, such as into the M1 Poma, possibly parts the up-track, link from top station into Ptarmigan Bowl, bottom of the 105, foot of the Gunbarrel - all potential areas that could have been improved, greatly enhancing the quality of the snowsports on offer and giving these links more chance to last further into next week increasing potential revenue from what is still a holiday period.

As a PS to this Glenshee is currently only skiing on two runs where they had been snowmaking prior to last weekends storm, and at the Lecht the beginner runs unlike most of the mainside runs retain full cover thanks to regular overnight snowmaking even during the snowfalls a couple of weeks ago.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 11.05hrs Sun 18 Feb 07 by alan.

I think this photo taken yesterday backs up Alans comment that a snow making system at the bottom of the Gunbarrel linking to the M1 and the foot of the gunbarrel to the funicular mid station would make a big difference. On Friday we managed to ski to the mid station (jumping a few rocks) and it was clear that a little bit of snow making would have made a big difference in the enjoyment, especially for the many beginners early intermediates who were also skiing down to mid station. In fact it wouldn't require more than a short strip maybe 50 to 100 yards to make a massive difference. It's hard to convey how such a big difference could be made by a few added yards of snow. Hope the pic helps, perhaps someone lucky enough to be skiing in the next couple of days can capture a better photo to help convey the message.



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 17.18hrs Mon 19 Feb 07 by pbs.

Attachments: Gunbarrel to M1 Poma.jpg (123kB)  

will it be cold enough for snow making this year? (only small amounts at Lecht and Glenshee)

why has cairngorm not run the tests they said?

If cairngorm had used artificial to fill in gaps they could virtually guarentee cover to mid-station. And people would then be happy to give them their £27.

Hard tae say, but probaly yes, the higher will probaly be the better...

And dusnae look as if they(cairngiorms) will bother their arse, going by some of the reading in other threads,, maybe aw the money that sports bodies gie them should be pulled and reinvested in Companies that see a future in Scottish Snowsports...

growwild Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And dusnae look as if they(cairngiorms) will
> bother their arse, going by some of the reading in
> other threads,, maybe aw the money that sports
> bodies gie them should be pulled ...

What money is that then growwild?
I am not aware of any extra funding given to the ski areas by such bodies.

Paul

Dunno Paul,

I was fishing for some info about who was paying or going tae pay for their snowmaking trials.. Tried tae ask afore but naebody answered so I thought it was suss..

Nobody wants to invest in snowsports in this country - everybody and their granny is talking about global warming and the fact that there is never enough snow for skiing anymore!!

As far as Cairn Gorm is concerned no external funding available is at the moment unfortunately and the sporting bodies do not contribute except to pay for the provision of competition facilities. (Ski races)
Snowmaking trials have not happened yet. A feasability study will be the best way forward but weather data is needed and the equipment will require capital funding. Maybe someone would take this on as a university research project which may bring in a little external funding and investigations/trials on an academic standing.
Before the money is sourced to pay for snowmaking it needs to be shown to be economically viable.
Recent discussions with CML (yesterday) mean that we hope to work with them over the next few months to try to get something organised.
Alan has some experience whilst working at better funded snowsports areas abroad and hopefully with input such as his and from other gorm enthusiasts CML will be able to try snowmaking soon.
Paul