Quote:
snow farming is essential when it comes to snow conservation and making the season last as long as possible.

Possibly the most important line in that document.

It's often assumed that foreign resorts simply have plenty of snow in typical seasons, and that little effort is required to maintain runs throughout the season. - So I thought the Thredbo website did a good job in describing the mind-set and the systematic approach to making & farming snow.

It seems all snowsport operators need to have a systematic approach to fencing/farming/snowmaking/grooming in order to keep terrain open for as many days as possible.

Snowmaking doesn't work when the temperatures are too high and that was the case during this winter 06-07 in the Alps. Snowmaking has got limits and might become inefficient with the problem of global warming.

Interesting discussion as always.

I presume the snow making trials that CML alluded to back in December never happened?

I was intrigued to read yesterday that the first southern hemisphere resort to open is a place called Tiffindell in South Africa - website here. I never knew there was any (outdoor) skiing in Africa so I learnt something straight off! The place seems pretty tiny although the hills it's on are apparently 3000 odd metres high. Anyway, they seem to rely on extensive snowmaking in addition to the some natural snowfall and my eye was drawn to the following statement:

"Snowmaking guarantees snow for over 100 days. This amount of snow would fall naturally once in 15 years"

Interesting at the very least!

On the subject of snow farming this is apparent in the Alps in late season (and even in early season when conditions aren't good). In Val d'Isere last month they even had lorries shifting snow to low lying chairs in order to keep them open until the end of the season and I saw similar in Les Gets in the Portes de Soleil last December when it was only snowmaking that was keeping many runs functional.

Sadly Scotland seems to lag far behind many other places at the moment and I wonder what it'll take for that to change. Given the current finances of CML in particular it seems that even if there was a will the cash might not be there, but without a different approach I fear the cash may never be there.

Another thought, a recent discussion on Snowheads brought up the viability of resorts in North America and the argument was made that without substantial interests in real estate and accommodation (Intrawest being an example) many companies running resorts wouldn't be viable. I wonder if that's true and that being the case, and, on the face of it at least, resorts in North America being so much more viable than those in Scotland, if CML could ever dig themselves out of the hole they've got themselves into without even more diversification? I'm pondering and asking the question just to see what people think, I'm not saying this is necessarily the case or even my view.

The Thredbo site also comments that pre-snowmaking they were averaging 19 days of top to bottom riding, now they get 100+ days a season.

If it had been possible to maintain at least one complete decent route to the mid-station throughout last season that in itself would have given a good boost to skier days, this does appear to be a critical threshold for getting people out. Indeed the Thredbo figure indicates a figure pre-snowmaking that is probably worse than the carpark run on CairnGorm.

If top to daylodge skiing was available more often the skier day figure would rise substantially even over the gains of top to middle riding. As part of any research into snowmaking/farming/altered uplift it would be useful to go back through customer data on tickets sold and other income and how it relates to snow/level, skiable access to the mid-station, skiable access to the daylodge etc. When you can ski to the Daylodge it alters the dynamic of the ski area, spreads demand, reduces pressure on the Ptarmigan and boosts catering spend.

Lack of Catering Capacity is a double whammy at present, people expect queues in the Ptarmigan and often avoid it, having fewer if any stops. Not only does this reduce overall catering spend, it means more people spend a higher % of the day sliding which increases pressure on the lifts and means more queues. An increase in catering capacity, esp the provision of a couple of smaller satellite outlets and the Sheiling would encourage people to stop for a quick drink more often, increase income and reduce pressure on the lifts.

In terms of AWG predictions last season would still be in the milder than average category for the 2050s based on UKCIP scenarios. A couple of thoughts:

- Focus capacity above the 2800ft (800m) contour and access to/from there.
- Key focus of snowmaking/farming maintaining link from 2800ft to mid-station.
- Top to Middle is 1300ft of vertical.
- Increasing % of snow to come from a Northerly quarter in warming climate.
- More runs with East/West Axis (ski area is more N/S) to gains from above point.

Splitting the WWP though not popular could treble uplift capacity on it for the Fairway. Ptarmigan Tow is currently running with a 15s interval which means a capacity of 480 an hour well below the spacing before the new t-bars went on in 2001. This could be taken down to 7s interval (subject to sufficient HP) putting capacity to around 1050per hour - 1200 per hour on 6s spacing is now standard on t-bars.

Such modest investment could increase hourly top basin capacity by 1500pph. Allowing 10min avg per up/down circle that could accommodate an extra 250people before queues become an issue. At an est spend per head of £16per day that could be £4000 extra income.

Even without large scale investment which would be highly desirable, working smarter and innovative ideas could make quite big gains. Been seeing to be going forward in itself may help attract people back.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 11.59hrs Sun 27 May 07 by alan.

Tiffindell? Completely gobsmacked that there are snow sports in South Africa!

Look - if Thredbo (and all the other Australian ski areas) can do it - then we can. I've spent a season there and I can tell you that we get many more cold frosty nights than they do. It's not uncommon to see temperatures in the low teens at village level for days - weeks on end - with big dumps only a few times per season.

It's completely obvious that snow making in Scotland can work (Lecht?), it's just that the bigger ski areas here don't want to install it. I mean, what serious ski area - anywhere - DOESN'T have snow guns? Makes me wonder why they are in the business in the first place?


(The mountain at Tiffindell? - Ben McDhui!)



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 13.43hrs Sun 27 May 07 by William.

Quote:
-------------
"Chase and his snow-farming crew needed only a 2-inch snowfall to produce the
2-foot-deep snow pack that allowed White Grass to open."

"To help make the 50 kilometers of trails at White Grass skiable, "we groom
with tweezers," said Chase. Every rock and limb is picked off the trails
before the snow falls, and all creeks and water seeps are bridged."

The rest here - [www.whitegrass.com]

This would cost a lot less than snowmaking(big system) Though I still believe a few guns(mobile) is the way ahead..

Cairngorms still have a lot of mountain up above them, if they dont put in a lift up there then why not fencing or make gullys wi the snow and push it down to the runs after everybit of fresh/winblown?

Removal of rocks/burns etc and even burning back the heather and seeding it wi grass would make a huge difference to the amount of snow needed to open and stay open and cost a lot less than snowmaking..

If every run had a piters(or2) width track on it that it could drive up easy enough with no snow then these areas should be open quickstyle when the snow comes as ya can maneuver the beast aboot then. Obvousily in some areas of the resorts this will be impossible like the top of Glencoe and other boulder fields, but these areas, usualy higher get enough anyway..

Bump. I need some help with this one...
As part of what we are trying to do with the White Lady T-Bar and associated Piste(s) we are trying to formulate various plans that (will hopefully) go some way to proving the commercially viable case for repairing AND USING the WLT.
CML have commented that the WLT hasn't been run much in recent years and one of the reasons for this is the lack of snow at the bottom of the piste in the area below where users must take a left under the funicular track to get back to the M1 Poma or the train itself. If this small area was served by (portable?) snowmaking equipment then that would 'fix' the 'problem'
Would anyone be prepared to undertake a little web based research and come up with some accurately costed options for snowmaking for here? The whole area measures about 80m by 170m including the WL uptrack. Options would be to create a run (about 30m wide) by 170m long or to cover the whole area. I think that we can rule out the use of high volume fan guns due to lack of water pressure/volume but I'd guess that we would need to know how much water/pressure would be needed for wahtever system could be used, the electrical capacity required, the cost of making sufficient snow to cover the area to a given depth..say 12 inches? The temperatures required for snowmaking to be undertaken. The full cost of purchasing equipment and installation would need to be know. Other suggestions/help would be most welcome.
Regards
Olderalan

wouldnt a loading point further up the track be a better option?? Seems like it would be possible to do this (think of the goose over at nevis). Are there significant technical / geographical issues that would prevent this??

snow farming? this has worked farther up the hill and on significant areas of ground (Ptarmigan, down the M2 over to the WWP etc.)

working with / making the most of what they already have is surely the best option considering current cashflow (just doing it a lot smarter!).

Barry

Barry,
A range of options are being looked into..snowmaking at the bottom is one. Moving the loading ramp is another which has already been discussed with BK as has a temporary loading area further up.
If we examine all of the possibilities then hopefully the 'best' stragegy will emerge. At least we will be better informed about the possibilities.

Regards
Olderalan

Alan,

for a successful, expanding business, looking at any and all options makes sense. For a business that's on its arse it doesn't.

What would we / CML do differently if we were all agreed that there would be ZERO funding for WLT over and above getting it spinning again?? We must think differently here.

There appears to be a history of throwing money at a problem or a plan to increase revenue (e.g. the choo-choo and the current shitpile (sorry, Arts Project!) at the bottom of the carpark to name but two). This demonstrates at best a lack of management vision and at worst a lack of management competence. Investing in a problem doesn't always make it go away.

As a supporter I would not commit ANY further funding to a project unless all free / existing resources were fully utilised, and that includes spending anything on studies or any other consultancy shite UNTIL every other available internal resource is at 100% balls-out utilisation first. (Consultants gather data from you and then sell it back to you - please please please no dam consultants on this one!!)

How much would it cost to have a higher load point on the track? Bugger all

How much would it cost to study, commission and operate mobile snowmaking? more than that (and aint that the bottom line right now??)

I'd love to join you on Sept 1st but am travelling with work. I do hope though that we can encourage BK et al to think a little differently than simply think about investing money on the latest scheme to try and progress the business.

If any CEO were told:
1) you can not invest over and above maintencance costs (incl agreed marketing budget) for 3 years
2) you must maintain current service levels
3) you must grow the business by 20% over the next 3 years

What would / could he do?? Sound impossible?? What might the CEO do / do differently if he/she were told that their job depended on it?

rant over! (probably a monday thing!)


Barry

Barry,
I agree to disagree with you....studying all options should (IMHO) assist with polarising plans towards what has to (sensibly) happen. I'm certainly not advocating spending any money on researching the snowmaking possibilities which I hope can be done costlessly (other than some freely given time) If good information can be obtained then that would also inform the debate that centres around the installation of snowmaking in the area of the (lower) Zig Zags. In my view, a greater certainty of a complete run from the Ptarmigan to the middle would have commercial benefits...although these canot be definitively quantified. So...a bit of web based research might help to provide us with information/knowledge that we presently do not have and 'kill two birds with one stone'.
Having said all of that, our primary and overriding aim continues to be to get the WLT repaired and put back into use. That is what I continue to work towards (sometimes behind the scenes...only today I have been in contact with the Scottish Ski Club to discuss how we might all work together on this, to our mutual benefit) and hence why I am looking for a little help with respect to snowmaking..anyone?
At this point I do have to add that there is another agenda here....we are hoping that the final document, let's call it 'The re-energising of snowsports on CM' will be useful in trying to obtain external support. Perhaps this is too idealogical and doomed to get nowhere.....we can but try and then we'll know.
Regards
Olderalan

fair enough Alan, however to your point, shouldnt any review of snowmaking concentrate on those areas where there is no logical alternative ie zig-zags down to middle - I would agree this should be looked at as there doesnt appear to be a viable alternative.

However over at the WLT you could easily have a temporary loading point up the hill a bit, and save snowmaking efforts for somewhere else like the zig-zags where there's no alternative and seemingly nothing different the company can do with the resources to hand.

That all said, keep up the good work, i'll keep challenging the strategy!

Barry

Some more thoughts from me:

1) I agree with Barry - we need to stress to BK that CML need to do more snow farming. We know it can be done, even with the small piste machine as we saw them do it at the end of the season (with the small piste machine) when they set up a new sledge run on the last weekend moving around a fair amount of snow in a few hours. There is a lot of scope for pushing snow down from between the fences and the funicular track wher it is unskiable for H&S reasons. This must similarly be possible for areas around the zig zags, chicken run area aswell.

2) Fencing specificaly to collect snow for moving around - ideas on where? Feasible?

3) CML should move heaven and earth (or alternatively lots of snow ) to keep a run to the middle open. I've got a few friends who ski who said last year that they wouldn't come skiing at Cairngorm because it wasn't complete to the middle. Just skiing the top and the cas didn't interest them (though it would probably have improved their skiing). I'm sure that a complete run to the middle is one criterion a lot of people use to decide on wether they will ski or not.

4) Bridging burns etc. For example would it be possible to bridge the likes of the gunbarrell to improve the gulley filling with snow - presumably for environmental reasons it would have to be semi permanent in most places so it could be removed over the summer. Any other areas where permanent or semi permanent bridges of streams might be helpfull?


Dave

There must be others who can remember the days when the lights from the piste machines could be seen from Aviemore as they worked at piste preparation/moving snow around, long after the lifts had all closed down for the day. Maybe a return to that kind of dedicated operation is what is needed.

Regards
Olderalan