No other Scottish ski area has reduced their mid mountain uplift capacity by 50%.

Winterhighland exists to help make the most of Scottish Snowsports, thus being impartial about what has been done at a strategic level on CairnGorm Mountain isn't compatible with that objective IMO. CMLs strategic direction was in conflict with that of skiers and boarders (and indeed local businesses whom both CMLs actions and inactions have significant consequences for).

On a personal level, it's my local ski hill. Thus it is both frustrating and also deeply concerning for the future to see CML being left behind. Esp Glenshee which has a large head start over CairnGorm Mountain in an age of high fuel prices. It's simply much closer to the majority of the Scottish population. CairnGorm and to a degree Nevis Range are likely to find they increasingly have to justify that extra travel distance - which will be difficult with Glenshee leading the way in terms of *visible* snowsports investment.

Many were hoping two good seasons would see a chair, if not both spin again in Coire na Ciste or at the very least the boardwalk fixed (a modest investment which would take a lot of heat out of the issue).

Alas we start the season not just without any of those things, but with most of the lower half of the West Wall Poma effectively unfenced such is the snow fencing's state of disrepair, while the Poma itself does I believe still not have a driver motor in place.

I know at least a couple of life time CairnGorm season pass holders who did not renew this year. I fear many have cut CML a lot of slack the past couple of seasons, in the hope of jam tomorrow - but there are limits to people's patience. More promising offerings elsewhere that's more convenient to get to could see real market shifts start to happen, which do not bode well for CairnGorm.

^ Yawn... Alan ranting his political agenda and personal grudges again.

This relentless 'incompetent operator' bullshit needs to get put to bed once and for all. Otherwise myself, and many others, will simply stop contributing. The season is less than a week old and already you are moaning like a little bitch.

The simple fact is that Cairngorm were made bankrupt by the Ģ30 million trainset built in 2001. It didn't matter who was in charge, because they were screwed by massive debt repayments. Cairngorm are just as skint as the other 4 Scottish areas, just in a different way.

116 pages of non conditions rants have achieved what ?
Absolutely nothing...

Without doubt bad stuff happened, especially the core lifts policy - but its time to move on. Rather than using your forum to stir up crap and anti-CML sentiment at any opportunity. If CML had been left to go bankrupt then it would have been a total disaster for the whole of Scottish snowsports, and there might not even be skiing on Cairngorm anymore.

IMHO the endless rants and points scoring (by the webmaster and also olderalan) just serve to convince the casual punter (before they even start that their days skiing) that it will be ruined by long queues and management errors. Clearly that is not the case.

Give it a rest, or at least take it off line - because this website can also be a great resource and source of information.

[www.haggistrap.co.uk]



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 09.32hrs Fri 16 Dec 11 by Doug_Bryce.

thx i was answering alan tho not myself, well in my opinion it has everything to do with him being the owner and the serial moaning that erupts on an almost daily basis, Alan's always in the middle of it sometinmes with great suggestions sometimes just moaning this draws everyone else in and the merry go round continues staff come on and read it and then start posting all sorts, like i said i doubt anyone comes up to him personally and says anything but he gets to float his own agenda on here and removes posts that dont agree with his stance,when asked directly (online) he says nothing can you explain then why it's always about CGM otherwise?

that is the problem your too emotionally attached to be objective but you own/run the website and probably started it out of a love for cgm/frustration for the problems which i am sure many are/were justified, it's a shame and as Doug says people will just stop contributing anything worthwhile then there will be no WHer's left to hear the moans, if you really want WH to exist to 'make the most of scottish snowsports' then quit with all the cgm bias crap and let the forum be the forum not just your personal megaphone.





Edited 1 times. Last edit at 09.39hrs Fri 16 Dec 11 by geeo.

Doug, I echo your sentiments but would point out that a mentality is also in place at CML that is unhelpful and which only they can sort out. I would say this mainly apparent through the negative, or uncertain, press releases they send out. Glen Coe could teach the marketing team at CML a lot about marketing.

Colin and the hill team are doing a great job in my opinion but the desk based staff need to change the public face of the company.

To bring positive suggestions to the discussion I think the following would be helpful:

1) place a statement on the CML website re the company's current position and thoughts with regards to the Ciste Chairlifts with the caveat that it's only thoughts
2) hold a meeting at the end of the season on the Ciste area
3) examine and change the workplace culture at CML with particular reference to marketing and communications. Specifically I would say that they need to recognise that they are paid to do a job and as paid employees of CML it's their job to blink first and change things.
4) Drop the rubbish about poor seasons and constant get-outs in press releases - this comes across as patronising and I reckon many on here know a lot more about skiing on CairnGorm than the CML marketing team do. *
5) Take down the Union Flag.

* I am not saying global warming doesn't exist - it does and we need to cut emissions.

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For campervan hire in Scotland visit [www.albacampervans.com] - Bhanaichean Campachaidh ann an Alba



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 09.48hrs Fri 16 Dec 11 by DonaldM.

They obviously do follow this forum!
Posted on the CML website today by Head of Ski Patrol

"Hello folks,

We had a number skiers and boarders asking us last weekend about restricted areas and the use of rope lines to close off runs and pistes. I hope the following will explain my policy on these areas as Head of Ski Patrol at Cairngorm Mountain.

There are a number of reasons why I would ask my team to close a piste or run, most commonly it would be on the grounds of safety, for example: avalanche risk, icy conditions, insufficient snow cover, the inability to safely evacuate casualties, dangers under the snow pack, pisting operations, competitions and the list goes on.

There are a number of areas which I would describe as having "hard barriers" which will usually consist of a rope line with hi visibility poles and signage (KEEP OUT or RUN CLOSED), this would be true of the West/East Wall/Ciste Gully. When this area is open for access to the public there will be open rope gates in place with an "ACCESS GATE" sign. Also the areas beside the Funicular tracks and runs being prepared by the PB 600 with the winch operating will be similarly closed with rope lines. I would expect that no one would enter these areas and if found doing so, I would instruct my team to revoke the persons uplift privileges. Access gates will also be closed when the West Wall Poma is closing.

On the weekend of the 10/11th Dec we had a rope line in place closing the Cas side of the mountain. This was to enable the piste machines to dose snow and use the winch to move snow more effectively; this speeds up the process of opening runs and improves the piste quality. The Ski Patrol also had to mark various obstacles which could not be done on the Friday as they were helping replace the tow ropes which came off in the 165mph winds.

We also have a number of rope lines in place as a guide stop members of the public leaving the Ski Area in poor visibility, for example the top of the Ptarmigan Tow.

Questions have also been asked as to why runs with marginal snow conditions cannot be accessed at the users own risk. This is a difficult one for me, what usually happens in this situation is that a competent user may be followed by a less competent user who then gets in to difficulty or gets injured which places potential rescuers at risk. If this were to happen it may need a number of Ski Patrollers to affect a rescue when their time would be better utilized preparing and opening other slopes.

I would ask that if any Skiers or Boarders are in any doubt if a run or piste is closed then they should contact a member of Ski Patrol to seek clarification. We may also be able to give advice on slopes which are out with the Ski Area which are free from ropes, signs and clipboards which can be accessed by a little sweat,

Happy Skiing/Boarding,

Iain Cornfoot
Head of Ski Patrol Cairngorm Mountain"

Cairngorm was always as mad as a box of frogs, so nothing on this thread should upset anyone particularly. Clearly this is a superb forum for anyone with a love for Scottish mountains and snow ... and clearly the 'gorm has to be a little more transparent and communicative (though improvements are obvious). There's no reason why official (rather than anonymous) responses shouldn't appear from time to time when alan has a go. I seem to recall Bob Kinnaird doing that occasionally.

When I worked on Cairngorm 35-37 years ago, the head of the ski school - a hilarious Austrian guy who skied like a god - found it hard to get out of bed with his girlfriend until about midday. He had a little toasting machine in the bedroom for making 'cheese toasties' ... not sure if that was before or after sex.

We were lucky to see him up on the hill once in a fortnight, if the weather was OK. But he used to drive us up to Aviemore every Monday night in the rusting minibus to see the midnight movie, which was a point in his favour.

There were something like 10 competing ski schools on Cairngorm at the time (1974), and it was the first place I ever heard the word 'punters' being actively used - and I'm a Londoner! - to refer to regular customers on the hill (the ones that pay the wages).

The bread and butter of Cairngorm is regular family skiers, groups, young friends, beginners, cautious intermediates etc. ... and queuing is a factor. We had unbelievable queues in the mid-1970s for the White Lady T - probably 40 minutes (several hundred skiers in neat parallel lines up the piste).

The mountain is bonkers, but it does need to have all its uplift running to even remotely cope.

[Hope that qualifies as a 'non-conditions' posting]

Sorry as a complete tangent - I am always sick when I hear "the gorm". I remember speaking to some CML staff who didn't know where An Cārn Gorm was and what CairnGorm actually means.

-----------------------------------------------------------
For campervan hire in Scotland visit [www.albacampervans.com] - Bhanaichean Campachaidh ann an Alba

Personalising posts and slagging others is as completely unnecessary as it is unacceptable. Time now for a 'red card' rather than a 'yellow'

Regards

Olderalan

^ does this mean I am not invited to your BBQ this year ?

Red card ? For daring to say a few words in favor of Cairngorm ?
Your having a laugh....

If you think its OK to stir up anti CML sentiment then I am entitled explain why it ended up such a gong show (basically too much funicular debt - didnt matter who was in charge).



Edited 3 times. Last edit at 10.59hrs Fri 16 Dec 11 by Doug_Bryce.

In my view, it should be perfectly possible to make your point(s) without the need to be discourteous and personally offensive. Anyone who isn't able to do that should be warned and then have their posting priveledges removed,if they persist.
It's down to the forum moderators to decide whats's acceptable and what's not.....but I can voice my opinion, can I not?

Kind regards

Olderalan

I can't believe a lot of this discussion.

CML have been slated in the past for lack of snow management, farming, etc. Now the snow arrives early season, they go to town on doing just that. With that effort, there inevitably comes H&S and other considerations and results in partial closure to get on with the job.

I have to say that from a business perspective, doing all they can to optimise snow sustainabilty in readiness for the Xmas break, when if conditions are right, they can make a lot of money, is very sound.

Mechanically uplifted snowsports requires investment, and therefore the centres have to make serious money to be sustainable. That inevitably means serious management of their assets (whether equipment or snow) on a day to day basis. This is what alpine/n.american/japanese/oz resorts do. You go to any of these resorts at this time of the year, and the emphasis is on restricted availability until the piste and equipment conditions are stabilised and sustainable. Large areas of the mountain, whilst skiable, will be closed off.

If people want the Scottish centres to be sustainable, we will have to accept that the management are going to have to become more interventionist in physically managing their hills. The romantic notion of having mechanical uplift combined with a free for all access is not financially sustainable.

Perhaps the centres should start talking about Snowsports Area Tickets, not a lift ticket. Once/if they get into widespread snowmaking, snow farming and management, the actual cost of providing such facilities is equally as significant as the running cost of the lifts.

That having been said, the centres, and CML in particular, need to get much better in keeping their customers updated on what's happening.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 11.33hrs Fri 16 Dec 11 by Hipennine.

Doug. Far from not talking to CML, a number of season ticket holders have been talking to CML in a formal sense for over five years now about the Ciste. Since before bringing together over 50 season ticket holders and other interested parties to that open forum meeting way back in 2006.

Indeed, some of the people you like to take pot shots at, are not only talking to CML about various things, but have put significant time, effort and their own hard cash into various things and projects. Some, which have been basically under the radar online, but were taken onboard and acted upon by CML, with quantifiable benefits for skiers and boarders.

If they had been trumpeted on here, no doubt you'd have shot them down as whinging, as ill-informed and that it's subjects which should have been left to the experts. The fact is none of the ski areas have all the answers, nor do any of us, but exchanging ideas, thoughts and concepts, things that made real improvements for next to no capital cost have been achieved.

If you think the fuss that arose over the core lift policy and the awareness of the FCS consultation that the web enabled had no benefit, you don't know how close the Daylodge Poma was to the gas axe - it was decommissioned in 2007.

Winterhighland's both accused of running a website to wage a personal vendetta to damage CairnGorm. At the same time has been accused by supporters of the other areas of being an agent of CML and only interested in promoting CairnGorm!!

If that was the case rather a lot more posts would be removed. Posts were removed yesterday because one reply to a couple of earlier posts had received 4 complaints by the alert system in the space of 5 minutes - so the post in question and a couple preceding it that were part of the same post thread were removed to cool things down.

I'm not a fan of cairngorm, but I don't understand people slagging it off? If they don't like the place, then don't go there, if you don't go there then you've got nothing to complain about

Why keep going to a place if you don't like it and then moaning about it online? Vote with your feet and go somewhere else