Couple of minor but maybe relevant points - I personally dont think the closed system should ever be removed - doing so would probably end up requiring a full time mountain rescue facility to go and find all the day trippers that have wandered off got lost with inadequate clothing etc. I dont think you would have the same problem with the chair lifts. You can prevent those inadequately prepared getting on.

As to the train - it is so much better, faster than the old chairs, it can operate in higher wind speeds than a chair, it is more appealing for the day trippers.

Okay there are issue with the tunnel drifting, by think they would lose more days with a chair being off more due to cross winds and they are making attempts to resolve the drifting issue, I wish this year had given them the opportunity.

A lot of the costs of the train were due to the huge focus by environmentalists, I believe there were folks employed toe ensure that stones that were overturned were righted to minimise the impact of construction. Also the top station had to be built to underground spec and standards.

As the train has always benefited from the low vat rate just think of the benefit that would of added up to to offset some of the building costs. I am sure someone on here can work it out. Also does the quotes costs also include the cost of the Ptarmigan and Day lodge?

Regardless if you are in favour of it or not it is a unique visitor attraction and has brought year round benefit to CML and the surrounding area, more so that a chair or gondola would.

I exclude the suggested idea of a Glenmore Gondola when I refer to the Gondola above.

The closed system is purely an environmental management tool and has absolutely zero to do with safety.

I do like the train, allot. And CML as well as everybody has benifited from it alot and its a great way to access the upper slopes at times like these.

But...

As I have said before, ski centres are businesses and to succeed they need to turn over a profit, something that has been a problem in Scottish hills lately lets be honest. What good is a funicular railway with such rules set in place that restricts its usefulness to the point where a new (or refurbed) lift has to be setup (for arguments sake) effectively paralel to it in order to bypass those rules.

I understand the closed system is there for a reason but by allowing mountain bikers down specifiic trails/parts of the mountain doesnt mean everybody has to get access. Mountain access could still be controled with strict rules similar to snowsports

The funicular needs the extra traffic to make it worthwhile financially, it seems like the perfect solution!

Agree Alan but my personal view is that it has the potential to be a real safety issue. There are enough people who wander off ill prepared as it is, open access from the train could make it worse.

You are not against getting the west wall spinning are you?

Joke

Think of the bigger picture getting full length top to bottom chair access on the Ciste side would be a huge benefit for snow sport, everyone can gain.

The unprotected areas of Cairngorm, Coire Cas and Coire na Ciste should be a gold mine for local businesses. However with the total inaction of National and local politicians the needless restrictions are still in place on the Funicular railway. Google Article 2 of the EU Birds and Habitats Directive and it can be seen that there is a way around the restrictions.

The protected EU site is within 200 metres of the car park, which visitors are allowed to enter without any restriction. Whilst the top of the funicular railway is closed to prevent people visiting the same designated area which entails a round trip of about 3 kilometres and about 250 metres of ascent. Inundate the Cairngorms National Park Authority with complaints.

I believe the Funicular kit included a flat top waggon, which has never been used and would be ideal for carrying bikes if the restrictions could be overcome.

Extending the chairlift in Coire na Ciste will cause another 5 years of expensive arguments. If the application was successful there would probably be a section 75 restricting the lift to walkers, because they might enter an area that has the statutory right of responsible access, just like the Funicular. If no section 75 is made it would be a real bonus. However, it would compete with the Funicular and cause more difficulties for that operation.

To put EU designations into perspective. The Tain Bombing Range has the same EU Designation as the Cairngorm Plateau.

Dream on.

It still annoys me that the Shieling and other resources are not leased to a third party and used as they were intended.

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For campervan hire in Scotland visit [www.albacampervans.com] - Bhanaichean Campachaidh ann an Alba

Hafod Eryri (The Yr Wyddfa/Snowdon summit station) was built without a closed system and with EU funding. Most people seem go out have a walk around the summit and then go back in again. I suspect that most visitors to the Ptarmigan would do the same and probably wouldn't go very far. Granted the Cairngorm Plateau is a much bigger area to get lost in, but the terrain in the immediate vicinity of the Ptarmigan is easier than that surrounding the Hafod Eryri, so the potential for accidents is probably lower.

It only takes the one to get lost, and a sudden hill mist is all it takes to get disoriented, there will be the thousands that will be sensible. Just seems weird to me that you can get a chance to walk out on the sixth highest mountain in the UK with only 5 minutes exposure to weather being the walk from car bus to the train. Just as well it will never be my call.

Well, there's over a century of experience of allowing punters out of peak top railway stations (cog and funiculars) all over the alps in similar large wild landscapes (plus wandering over acres of glaciers), and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

IMHO, if there was a system of reconciling tickets (ie check them out, then check them back in) for amateur punters when they leave the Ptarmigan, this would be better risk management than letting them loose from any car park in any upland area of the UK. At least then there would be relatively early notice of a failure to return.

Agreed Hipennine. Daveski's comment appears to ignore common sense. You can walk out onto Sgùrr a' Chaorachain at the Bealach na Ba where the terrain is much more dangerous should you wander a long way off.

There is nothing at all strange about it Daveski, the only strange thing is that you aren't allowed out.

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For campervan hire in Scotland visit [www.albacampervans.com] - Bhanaichean Campachaidh ann an Alba

Reference about people getting lost. I spent nearly 40 years in mountain rescue covering this area. There were extremely few incidents of people getting lost using the chairlift considering the amount of passengers it carried. We don't stop people leaving the car park which generates a higher number of people getting into difficulties.
People are responsible for their own actions. Statistically, people getting into difficulty on our hills are few in comparison to the people who enjoying using them. Long may that continue.

I said before it is just as well it would not be my decision or would ever be asked for my opinion, the fact other places allow it does not make it right. However, the comment from Sunshine is based on years of experience on the Mountain rescue covering the area, so worth taking into consideration. Anyway I think my view is pretty much in the minority and I don't feel strong enough about it, I am not going to start any campaign to keep it a closed system.

Knowing how long it takes to to change things especially with European funding I think there was a time associated with the funding after which they do not need repaid. If this is true anyone know when its up?

Yep- closed system is a nonesense- esp when in the winter you can leave the top station and walk around (but not if you're carrying winter mountaineering kit!)

Seeing the two chairs running would be great for the area and encourage more people to ski when conditions are good (myself included) and also allow bike track for summer use.

I had a great day up there on sunday skiing, good effort getting the events and lifts going. However, I still hate the train as a means of accessing the upper slopes. I arrived at 10 ish and was greeted by a huge queue for the train - not good when you have an impatient 4 year old (and Dad) itching to get skiing!....on the plus side it cleared quickly and the rest of the day went well.

Good points here.

If you were to have a mini, well marked, network of walking trails going around Cairngorm Mountain with turnsyle/checkpoints at the entraces & exits then theres not alot to go wrong. And then those few who do go off and get lost wouldnt be able to pin the blame on a poorly managed system. Even the most daft novice hill-walkers have a sense of self-preservation and will be unlikely to wander away from footpaths.

The main point of the closed system though is due to envormental concerns, something which I think is a load of Bollocks, for want of a better word;

My biggest beef with that statement is that the same enviromentalists keep telling us that the Cairngorm Plateau is one of the harshest enviroments in the counrty and that anything that wants to live on it, plants and animals, need to be incredibly hardy, much hardier than your average Scot. But still they say its fragile, and compared to elsewhere where humans can roam free it really is not. In any case, they built a heavily impacting (cosmetically and physically) choo choo train on the same mountian that they say is "fragile", Damage caused by hill walking is nothing compared to that!

With a well maintained footpath, I really don't see what damage could be done. If you have ever been to Stac Pollaidh in the west (famous for being the crumbling mountain) you will have noticed that the (rather good) footpath does next to no damage when compared to natural erosion.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 12.22hrs Tue 24 Apr 12 by cammyammy.